Dmitri's Dacha

Started by karlhenning, April 09, 2007, 08:13:49 AM

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Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Leo K.

Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)

DavidW

Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)

That is odd I can't remotely recall that symphony at all.  I should give it a fresh listen.

aukhawk

Forgettable music - thank goodness!

vandermolen

Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)
I like No.12 as well.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Brahmsian

Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)

I'll have to revisit the 12th as I really used to like it when I was first discovering Shostakovich's symphonies, but I admit that my interest in it has waned comparatively to most of the other symphonies as time has gone by.

BasilValentine

Quote from: DavidW on February 26, 2021, 11:14:45 AM
That is odd I can't remotely recall that symphony at all.  I should give it a fresh listen.

You could do that, or you could listen to the slow movement of Miaskovsky's 24th for a refresher. ;)

DavidW

Quote from: BasilValentine on February 27, 2021, 05:40:46 AM
You could do that, or you could listen to the slow movement of Miaskovsky's 24th for a refresher. ;)

Okay will do, I've queued up the Svetlanov recording.

Maestro267

The outright disdain for No. 12 baffles me. Unlike No. 11 where the programme is necessary, you can discard that for No. 12 and appreciate the music on its own merit.

relm1

Quote from: Maestro267 on February 28, 2021, 05:14:49 AM
The outright disdain for No. 12 baffles me. Unlike No. 11 where the programme is necessary, you can discard that for No. 12 and appreciate the music on its own merit.

I don't think it is disdain, just shallow.  It is sort of like a loud action movie, sure sometimes they are great and lots to enjoy...maybe have quieter, reflective moments, but ultimately get a bit repetitive, formulaic, and predictable.  If a work reveals its secrets more slowly, they than tend to reward repeated listening.  With 12, you feel you get what all it has to say in a first hearing.  I'm a fan of it but don't consider it in his top 10 symphonies.  It's a lot of fun especially if you have the opportunity to hear it live but something I can go years between a listen.  No. 11, I practically have heard every recording made and heard it live multiple times.  It's just a better symphony.  I also absolutely loved a terrifying performance of it that has never been recorded so always seek to recapture that terrifying coda with the savage intensity that no recording I've heard quite captures.

DavidW

Quote from: BasilValentine on February 27, 2021, 05:40:46 AM
You could do that, or you could listen to the slow movement of Miaskovsky's 24th for a refresher. ;)

Not sure what that was about.  I listened to both symphonies and did not hear anything in common between the two.

DavidW

Quote from: relm1 on February 28, 2021, 05:48:06 AM
I don't think it is disdain, just shallow.  It is sort of like a loud action movie, sure sometimes they are great and lots to enjoy...maybe have quieter, reflective moments, but ultimately get a bit repetitive, formulaic, and predictable. 

Well the entire second movement and frequent passages in the finale are quiet and introspective so I'm not getting this.  Maybe you just don't like the motif that runs through the symphony.  It is definitely a forgettable lesser symphony of his, but it really is no more bombastic or repetitive as any of his other symphonies.  That is just not it.  It is maybe just not as inspired or as emotionally deep.

relm1

Quote from: DavidW on March 01, 2021, 05:47:59 AM
Well the entire second movement and frequent passages in the finale are quiet and introspective so I'm not getting this.  Maybe you just don't like the motif that runs through the symphony.  It is definitely a forgettable lesser symphony of his, but it really is no more bombastic or repetitive as any of his other symphonies.  That is just not it.  It is maybe just not as inspired or as emotionally deep.

Simple.  Quiet doesn't mean deep.  I love the motif that runs through the symphony and that doesn't mean an audience wants to hear it over and over.  In contrast, Symphony No. 15 is incredibly rich with ideas and allusions that link together but doesn't offer it's secrets easily.  12 is probably his most bombastic symphony so don't agree with you that it is "no more bombastic or repetitive as any of his other symphonies"?   I definitely agree with you that it is not as inspired or emotionally deep.  This is Dmitri at his most overtly populist and that's the least interesting version of him.  Doesn't mean it isn't fun, it just doesn't reward repeated effort.   It has earned its reputation.  Also keep in mind we are talking about one of the great symphonists of all time so a lesser symphony from him is better than most others best.  But I'm repeating myself and you are free to disagree. 

vandermolen

No.12 is not one of the greatest but I still enjoy it and like its use as accompanying music to later versions of Eisenstein's 'October'.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

When I was listening to a lot of Shostakovich, I never could quite get into the 12th. It felt like bombast for its own sake --- basically an empty shell of a symphony. It simply wasn't for me. Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm still the most impressed with the 4th through the 10th, 13th and 15th. When I do listen to Shostakovich nowadays, I seem to reach for the concerti, Preludes & Fugues, the song cycles or the chamber works (esp. the SQs).

Leo K.

I totally understand how the 12th could be foreseen this way - Shostakovich makes "bombast" orchestrally exciting and another interesting facet of his style and autobiography. Maybe not as memorable but I love the thematic material here.

milk

I think this is a very unique and interesting recording I just discovered. Do you know this one? Mustonen plays a program of Bach's and Shostakovich's respective preludes and fugues. He intersperses the sets. I wonder if he did these live as well. He takes the tack of playing Bach more like Shostakovich rather than vice versa and it pretty much works. The way he plays Bach here ordinarily would annoy me. This much pianism in the hands of another could very well come across as tacky and crass. But somehow it works, by juxtaposition and even in the manner of a Feinberg if I can make such a lofty comparison. He's dynamically jagged, which could get on one's nerves in the Bach if he didn't switch over to Shostakovich. But his imagination shines through in both, by way of creative and energetic articulation, and makes this a winning effort.

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2021, 11:43:46 AM
When I was listening to a lot of Shostakovich, I never could quite get into the 12th. It felt like bombast for its own sake --- basically an empty shell of a symphony. It simply wasn't for me. Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm still the most impressed with the 4th through the 10th, 13th and 15th. When I do listen to Shostakovich nowadays, I seem to reach for the concerti, Preludes & Fugues, the song cycles or the chamber works (esp. the SQs).
I've been listening to Ormandy's recording of No.4 which I still consider one of the best. Previn's is another favourite - interesting that they are both American conductors.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

relm1

Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 03:31:51 AM
I've been listening to Ormandy's recording of No.4 which I still consider one of the best. Previn's is another favourite - interesting that they are both American conductors.

Ormandy is from Hungary and Previn was born in Berlin, Germany.  Just teasing you though since they are also vintage American like those other Americans, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Igor Stravinsky, Ernst Bloch, Arnold Schoenberg, Max Steiner, Erich Korngold, etc...  :laugh: :P :laugh:

DavidW

Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 03:31:51 AM
I've been listening to Ormandy's recording of No.4 which I still consider one of the best.

The Ormandy recording was my introduction to the symphony, and yeah the recording is first rate. 

For American conductors on DSCH I like the efforts of Leonard Bernstein/NYPO and not as well known Andrew Litton/DSO.