Dmitri's Dacha

Started by karlhenning, April 09, 2007, 08:13:49 AM

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Mirror Image

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 22, 2021, 08:52:06 AM
Partly prompted by the talk about Rozhdestvensky's live performances I revisited some of his USSR Ministry of Culture SO performances as released on the late-lamented Olympia



He makes a very powerful case for the Leningrad - all snarling Soviet brass and jackbooted snare-drums.  Subtle it ain't but then neither is the work.  This is a symphony as agit-prop and as such it succeeds gloriously

I think Rozhdestvensky does a fine job in the Leningrad. It's a difficult symphony to bring off because of that first movement 'bolero'. To keep that thing going without losing the interest of the listener is something that many can't quite achieve, but I think Rozhdestvensky is successful. Another favorite 7th is Bernstein's with the CSO on DG. He gives this work some serious gravitas and I don't think I've heard a better Adagio. I used to not be much of a fan of this work until I heard several different interpretations of it and I have to say that Bernstein and Rozhdestvensky certainly helped me in understanding it.

Irons

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2021, 07:15:16 PM
I think Rozhdestvensky does a fine job in the Leningrad. It's a difficult symphony to bring off because of that first movement 'bolero'. To keep that thing going without losing the interest of the listener is something that many can't quite achieve, but I think Rozhdestvensky is successful. Another favorite 7th is Bernstein's with the CSO on DG. He gives this work some serious gravitas and I don't think I've heard a better Adagio. I used to not be much of a fan of this work until I heard several different interpretations of it and I have to say that Bernstein and Rozhdestvensky certainly helped me in understanding it.

In Mravinsky's recording "Bolero" is a dance of death.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2021, 07:15:16 PM
I think Rozhdestvensky does a fine job in the Leningrad. It's a difficult symphony to bring off because of that first movement 'bolero'. To keep that thing going without losing the interest of the listener is something that many can't quite achieve, but I think Rozhdestvensky is successful. Another favorite 7th is Bernstein's with the CSO on DG. He gives this work some serious gravitas and I don't think I've heard a better Adagio. I used to not be much of a fan of this work until I heard several different interpretations of it and I have to say that Bernstein and Rozhdestvensky certainly helped me in understanding it.

+1 for the Bernstein/CSO recording.  In the main I am not a fan of Late Lennie's ponderous preferences.  But in this instance it really does serve his implaccable vision of the music and of course the Chicago players have the chops to sustain the musical tension he creates.  It makes me wish he'd turned his hand to some more of the overtly 'epic' DSCH scores

relm1

#2523
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 23, 2021, 08:07:18 AM
+1 for the Bernstein/CSO recording.  In the main I am not a fan of Late Lennie's ponderous preferences.  But in this instance it really does serve his implaccable vision of the music and of course the Chicago players have the chops to sustain the musical tension he creates.  It makes me wish he'd turned his hand to some more of the overtly 'epic' DSCH scores

Just imagine a late DG Lennie No. 8, 10, or 11 with NYP, RCO or something.  How glorious would that have been?  If he did 11, it would probably be 80 minutes long with a 20+ minute opening and he would have blasted us all in the Allegro and it would have felt justified with its extreme volume and duration.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 23, 2021, 08:07:18 AM
+1 for the Bernstein/CSO recording.  In the main I am not a fan of Late Lennie's ponderous preferences.  But in this instance it really does serve his implaccable vision of the music and of course the Chicago players have the chops to sustain the musical tension he creates.  It makes me wish he'd turned his hand to some more of the overtly 'epic' DSCH scores

Outside of the symphonies, I always kind of wish Bernstein conducted the Violin Concerto No. 1 as I would think he would work wonders in the Passacaglia (still, for me, one of Shostakovich's most heart-breaking musical utterances). Of course, he'd need a violinist who would be in-tune with his own vision of the work and Screechy Stern isn't one of them! :P

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2021, 07:22:42 PM
Outside of the symphonies, I always kind of wish Bernstein conducted the Violin Concerto No. 1 as I would think he would work wonders in the Passacaglia (still, for me, one of Shostakovich's most heart-breaking musical utterances). Of course, he'd need a violinist who would be in-tune with his own vision of the work and Screechy Stern isn't one of them! :P
Yes, that would have been great. The Passacaglia is one of my favourite DSCH moments too.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

Quote from: vandermolen on April 23, 2021, 11:17:38 PM
Yes, that would have been great. The Passacaglia is one of my favourite DSCH moments too.

Yes, these moments that happen with this kind 'mask off' heart-on-sleeve emotionalism is why I think Shostakovich resonates with me so strongly, because it reveals that the man wasn't merely grotesque marches, comical satire, and zany musical rhetoric, but there was a beating heart behind all of it.

relm1

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2021, 07:18:28 PM
Yes, these moments that happen with this kind 'mask off' heart-on-sleeve emotionalism is why I think Shostakovich resonates with me so strongly, because it reveals that the man wasn't merely grotesque marches, comical satire, and zany musical rhetoric, but there was a beating heart behind all of it.

Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

Mirror Image

Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

Ah yes, I really should revisit Lady Macbeth. It's been far too long.

BasilValentine

Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

relm1

Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

I confess being less familiar with the quartets.  Any specific interpretation you suggest shall I mount a traversal?  I've heard much praise of the Borodin Quartet.

Mirror Image

Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 03:46:36 PM
I confess being less familiar with the quartets.  Any specific interpretation you suggest shall I mount a traversal?  I've heard much praise of the Borodin Quartet.

You didn't ask me, but get the Borodin Quartet. I have both their complete cycle on Melodiya and their partial cycle on Chandos. I have been impressed with both, but definitely track down the one on Melodiya.

Mirror Image

Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

Are you sure there's a passacaglia in the 10th SQ? The only slow movements I see are marked Andante (first movement) and Adagio (third movement) unless, of course, there's a passacaglia contained within those slow movements.

Madiel

The adagio is a passacaglia.
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Mirror Image

Quote from: Madiel on April 25, 2021, 09:32:24 PM
The adagio is a passacaglia.

Ah okay. Very good to know. 8)

Brahmsian

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 07:27:05 PM
You didn't ask me, but get the Borodin Quartet. I have both their complete cycle on Melodiya and their partial cycle on Chandos. I have been impressed with both, but definitely track down the one on Melodiya.

I second this recommendation. Borodin on Melodiya.

Roasted Swan

a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion.  The DSCH works all seems to convey a weightier meaning but then so does Britten's use of Passacaglias in Pter Grimes (and many other works).  Brahms 4's finale seems to bring his set of symphonies to a powerfully satisfying conclusion because(?) of the form.  On a lighter note - Carl Davis brilliantly orchestrated the great Bach C minor passacaglia for the film Napoleon and called it St. Just.  But this is just scratching the surface - there are so many great passacaglias!

Madiel

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2021, 04:10:39 AM
a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion.  The DSCH works all seems to convey a weightier meaning but then so does Britten's use of Passacaglias in Pter Grimes (and many other works).  Brahms 4's finale seems to bring his set of symphonies to a powerfully satisfying conclusion because(?) of the form.  On a lighter note - Carl Davis brilliantly orchestrated the great Bach C minor passacaglia for the film Napoleon and called it St. Just.  But this is just scratching the surface - there are so many great passacaglias!

Well if you want 'implacable' and 'fateful', it's a form that is essentially static. The theme continuously cycles over and over.

One that hasn't been mentioned is from the op.87 preludes and fugues. The G sharp minor prelude is a passacaglia (followed by one of the most ferocious fugues in the set).
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

aukhawk

#2538
Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

Also Passacaglias - the 3rd (slow) movement of the 6th Quartet.  The 3rd (slow) movement of the Piano Trio No.2.
Best of all, the Prelude No.12 in G Sharp Minor from the 24 Preludes & Fugues Op87 - this one quite similar in mood to the Violin Concerto.

You have to see Oistrakh in that Passacaglia -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OTq7uhzT8w  (starts around 4:10 but stops before the cadenza) (cond: Fricke )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk786KRIkQw  (the cadenza)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDfwcFxz6A  (better continuation, cadenza starts around 2:40)

relm1

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2021, 04:10:39 AM
a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion. 

Because it is basically an orchestrated crescendo.  As the the theme repeats, more tension, accompaniment, motion, dynamics swirl around it adding a sense of inevitability and usually there is an unexpected twist near the end that provides a tremendous unexpected release of tension like in Bach C minor Passacaglia reaching C major at point of maximum tension.  Since our expectations have been set and established for so long before, this sudden unexpected shift is quite dramatic and gives composers much room for innovative craftsmanship in exactly how and why they delay that transition and what they do once it is reached.