Dmitri's Dacha

[foxandpeng]

Take a deep breath --- Shostakovich will be awaiting your return.

Yesterday evening was a welcome diversion into most of Richard Arnell's symphonies to bring some familiar and less emotionally taut music for a while (apart from #3, which is longer and needing more attention than I remembered).

Back to SQ6 this morning. Despite the discussion around the subject matter of the Lento, this is a really engaging work. I'm coming to increasingly look forward to DSCH's use of folk song in snapshot or developed sections, even when its purpose is tragic or ppainful. I do find that Lento extremely poignant and am more convinced of the reflective sadness than purposeful tranquillity.

In any case, this is beautiful.

[milk]

I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

[Roasted Swan]

I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

My introduction to these extraordinary works was Roger Woodward back when the set was on RCA(I think!).  I enjoyed it all over again when it got released on CD.  To be honest I don't know that many sets to be able to make much of a balanced judgement.  I only know Nikolaeva through her last Hyperion set and I have/had this nagging feeling that time had just caught up technically although of course interpretatively you can't ignore what she does.  I did enjoy Ashkenazy's set although perhaps he's just a little soft-edged emotionally at times......?

[Karl Henning]

I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

I'm very fond of Melnikov, Rubackyte, Ashkenazy and Shcherbakov. Although he isn't everybody's money, I like Mustonen, too.

[Mirror Image]

I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

I love Melnikov, Ashkenazy and Nikolayeva (on Melodiya). I haven't ventured any further, but really haven't felt the need to either with these three pianists' recordings.

[aukhawk]

Having been a long-time (20 years plus) buyer of music on vinyl the Hyperion set of Nikolayeva was the first CD(s) I ever bought.  It's often said that she was losing her chops by the time she recorded this, but I don't hear anything amiss at all.  The sound recording generally (my first experience of CD and reverb sinking into black silence) was a complete revelation to me - although I would now call the piano sound slightly too recessed for my taste - very typically Hyperion in fact.

My overall preference now is for Jenny Lin - a bit more dramatic and less soulful, and very well recorded in a more up-front way.  I also have Melnikov, and Jarrett, but never play either of them, always preferring Lin or Nikolayeva.

[relm1]

I enjoyed the new Andris Nelsons/BSO release of No. 1.  He makes it sound quite romantic and a work of a mature composer.  It's quite an impressive debut in his hands.  Thankfully the timpani solo is in tune.  But a bit tame.  It sounds like a mature composer's effort rather than a debut from an L'Enfant terrible.  A bit too polished but very impressive.  It reminds me somewhat of MTT Mahler SFO cycle, perfect audio but safe.  I might prefer my Shostakovitch more on the edge.  The ending was great though!

[Karl Henning]

I enjoyed the new Andris Nelsons/BSO release of No. 1.  He makes it sound quite romantic and a work of a mature composer.  It's quite an impressive debut in his hands.  Thankfully the timpani solo is in tune.  But a bit tame.  It sounds like a mature composer's effort rather than a debut from an L'Enfant terrible.  A bit too polished but very impressive.  It reminds me somewhat of MTT Mahler SFO cycle, perfect audio but safe.  I might prefer my Shostakovitch more on the edge.  The ending was great though!

Очень интересно!

[TheGSMoeller]

I enjoyed the new Andris Nelsons/BSO release of No. 1.  He makes it sound quite romantic and a work of a mature composer.  It's quite an impressive debut in his hands.  Thankfully the timpani solo is in tune.  But a bit tame.  It sounds like a mature composer's effort rather than a debut from an L'Enfant terrible.  A bit too polished but very impressive.  It reminds me somewhat of MTT Mahler SFO cycle, perfect audio but safe.  I might prefer my Shostakovitch more on the edge.  The ending was great though!

Haven't listened to the 1st, but I recently listened to the 15th from this disc and found it to be incredibly well done. Nelson gave it a very thoughtful interpretation.

[Madiel]

I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

Somewhere (on this thread?) is my blow by blow comparison of 3... EDIT: No, I don't think it's this thread, maybe a thread dedicated to the preludes and fugues.

SECOND EDIT: Found it here. https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1401.msg1274011.html#msg1274011

[milk]

Somewhere (on this thread?) is my blow by blow comparison of 3... EDIT: No, I don't think it's this thread, maybe a thread dedicated to the preludes and fugues.

SECOND EDIT: Found it here. https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1401.msg1274011.html#msg1274011

Thanks! Looking forward to it!

[foxandpeng]

Having found some real accessibility in the lower numbered SQs, I've now moved on to SQ 12 as my next in the cycle.

Wow, this SQ is much more difficult for me. Any assistance in helping me get my head round this SQ would be gratefully received. I'm currently on repeat in the first movement, which without the more obviously tuneful sections of other quartets, is challenging. Rising and falling 12 tone rows are harder to enjoy than folk-infused melodies, initially at least. Not having a musical background makes it harder to appreciate the inherent beauty of structural architecture! It's hard to know what is good and why. It feels a bit like trying to love quadratic equations. I want to get it, though. At the moment, it feels a bit meandering and a tougher nut to crack. I think I am identifying and grasping the legato melody, at last. Any hooks to grapple this better, and things to watch out for across the work would help me, I think?

What is it that you love or appreciate about it?

[Brahmsian]

Having found some real accessibility in the lower numbered SQs, I've now moved on to SQ 12 as my next in the cycle.

Wow, this SQ is much more difficult for me. Any assistance in helping me get my head round this SQ would be gratefully received. I'm currently on repeat in the first movement, which without the more obviously tuneful sections of other quartets, is challenging. Rising and falling 12 tone rows are harder to enjoy than folk-infused melodies, initially at least. Not having a musical background makes it harder to appreciate the inherent beauty of structural architecture! It's hard to know what is good and why. It feels a bit like trying to love quadratic equations. I want to get it, though. At the moment, it feels a bit meandering and a tougher nut to crack. I think I am identifying and grasping the legato melody, at last. Any hooks to grapple this better, and things to watch out for across the work would help me, I think?

What is it that you love or appreciate about it?

Have no fear, number 12 is indeed a thorny beast! 

That being said, I still really enjoy this piece. I particularly love the recapitulation at the end of the quartet, which goes over the opening of the second movement.

The opening movement I find is full of haunting beauty.

An odd quartet all around, in its key of D flat and unconventional two movements.

The thorns dull and are painless with more repeated attention to this work! 

[Madiel]

Well, I started with what the notes in the Fitzwilliam set told me about that one...

It's one of my absolute favourites. I'll be back when it's not the middle of the night and insomnia isn't dominating my mind.

[krummholz]

The 12th Quartet is indeed a thorny work. Yes, Dmitri uses a "tone row" in it, but not serially - it is more of a recurring melodic motif. The main theme of the first movement is rather melancholy but very much in the main key of D-flat. The second movement seems to me to be the crux of the musical argument, as a spiky, driven dance alternates with slower, more languid interludes. Just before the coda he reprises the opening of the *first* movement, then the coda proper returns to the opening material of the second movement, now in a major key. It's about as triumphant as anything DS wrote in his later years, puts me in mind of dancing on someone's grave (Stalin's maybe?).

My only advice is to keep listening. In time the logic, both structural and emotional, becomes clear, but it is not easily expressed in words.

[foxandpeng]

Have no fear, number 12 is indeed a thorny beast! 

That being said, I still really enjoy this piece. I particularly love the recapitulation at the end of the quartet, which goes over the opening of the second movement.

The opening movement I find is full of haunting beauty.

An odd quartet all around, in its key of D flat and unconventional two movements.

The thorns dull and are painless with more repeated attention to this work! 

Thank you so much. Thorny is a great descriptor. I am trying to grasp the thorns and ignore the pain for the inevitable beauty that is yet to come. The more I hear the first movement, the more I can see the haunting elements of which you speak.

Well, I started with what the notes in the Fitzwilliam set told me about that one...

It's one of my absolute favourites. I'll be back when it's not the middle of the night and insomnia isn't dominating my mind.

I wish I had access to the notes. It is one of the areas where streaming services or downloads fall desperately short compared to owning hard copy. I'm glad to hear that it is a favourite - it holds out hope for me that the same might eventually true for me also. The meandering quality of the rising fall of the violin and cello is becoming a familiar backdrop to everything else that is happening here. I very much look forward to further wisdom as and when you feel able to share those thoughts . Thank you!

The 12th Quartet is indeed a thorny work. Yes, Dmitri uses a "tone row" in it, but not serially - it is more of a recurring melodic motif. The main theme of the first movement is rather melancholy but very much in the main key of D-flat. The second movement seems to me to be the crux of the musical argument, as a spiky, driven dance alternates with slower, more languid interludes. Just before the coda he reprises the opening of the *first* movement, then the coda proper returns to the opening material of the second movement, now in a major key. It's about as triumphant as anything DS wrote in his later years, puts me in mind of dancing on someone's grave (Stalin's maybe?).

My only advice is to keep listening. In time the logic, both structural and emotional, becomes clear, but it is not easily expressed in words.

I am persevering! I am applying a Holmboe-like tenacity to get my claws in . I know that time and effort transforms the listening experience, so am glad to put in the hard miles. Spiky, driven dance sounds about right. I also love your grave-dancing analogy. Thanks for these helpful words!

To quote a certain Eric Cartman, I love you guys...

*spins SQ #12*

[Madiel]

Some streaming services do let you see booklets from albums, by the way (though not all albums).

Okay, let me try to gather my thoughts on SQ 12, without breaching too much of the copyright of the Fitzwilliam set. 

Heck, I might as well just listen to the work while typing.

I agree with krummholz a fair bit actually. The very opening might be 'atonal', but in truth it isn't an atonal work. To me, the essence of it is in fact about a battle of atonality and tonality, with tonality emerging triumphant.

The first movement quickly shows that it really is in D flat major, with the cello figure that keeps hesitantly climbing the scale. I find it rather beautiful actually. In between those sections, there's some of Shostakovich's Jewish-style dancing too. That's effectively the whole movement, alternating between those 2 things.

But it's the 2nd movement that is really something epic. This is where you get something that sounds like it's atonal, with that obsessive rhythm and weird shrieking trills. There's a quieter part minus the trills, but it's still essentially the same rhythm. Then you have chaotic runs before the trills and the quieter version interchange a little bit, even more chaotic runs... after maybe 7 minutes (obviously will depend on recording) all of this stops for a cello solo which gets interrupted by, and then accompanied by, what sound almost like muted horn calls from the other instruments, a kind of funeral procession.

About 11 minutes in you get pizzicato... and what it starts doing is a rather dramatised and nasty version of the 1st movement's climbing theme. This is where the battle really begins.    You get this warped version of the 1st movement climbing figure, a dash of the funeral music, and then some really violent pizzicato chords start happening. Then the funeral horn calls reappear... followed by a much calmer and more recognisable version of the 1st movement them, almost like a lullaby at this point. There's also a quote of the 1st movement's 'atonal' opening in there.

Now that calm has been achieved, the 2nd movement's obsessive rhythm and trills can creep back in. But now the rhythm knows it's in D flat major. The atonal elements try to fight back, but they keep losing as the rhythm keeps insisting on D flat major. There's plenty of spikiness, but the music in the last few minutes is most definitely in a key.

...I bloody love it.

[amw]

Strangely of all the Shostakovich quartets I've always felt it's no. 12 that would work best as a "chamber symphony", and yet as far as I know, no one has ever touched it. (Nos. 1, 3, 4, 8, & 10 are established "chamber symphonies"; 13 is an established "chamber concerto" for viola and strings; I feel like I've also definitely heard string orchestra versions of 2 and 15, but they may not be canonical yet.)

It's definitely in my top three but it does have that kind of late Shostakovich combination of insistence and deliberate paring down of material—disguised in this case by the fact that especially in the second movement there is an enormous wealth of material on the surface, but almost all of it is not thematic. I can see it being difficult to follow. I got to know it by following along with a score, but obviously this is only helpful for people who can read music.

[Mirror Image]

Strangely of all the Shostakovich quartets I've always felt it's no. 12 that would work best as a "chamber symphony", and yet as far as I know, no one has ever touched it. (Nos. 1, 3, 4, 8, & 10 are established "chamber symphonies"; 13 is an established "chamber concerto" for viola and strings; I feel like I've also definitely heard string orchestra versions of 2 and 15, but they may not be canonical yet.)

It's definitely in my top three but it does have that kind of late Shostakovich combination of insistence and deliberate paring down of material—disguised in this case by the fact that especially in the second movement there is an enormous wealth of material on the surface, but almost all of it is not thematic. I can see it being difficult to follow. I got to know it by following along with a score, but obviously this is only helpful for people who can read music.

Personally, I don't really see the need for anyone to have orchestrated any of Shostakovich's SQs. They're perfect the way they are, IMHO.

[foxandpeng]

Some streaming services do let you see booklets from albums, by the way (though not all albums).

Okay, let me try to gather my thoughts on SQ 12, without breaching too much of the copyright of the Fitzwilliam set. 

Heck, I might as well just listen to the work while typing.

I agree with krummholz a fair bit actually. The very opening might be 'atonal', but in truth it isn't an atonal work. To me, the essence of it is in fact about a battle of atonality and tonality, with tonality emerging triumphant.

The first movement quickly shows that it really is in D flat major, with the cello figure that keeps hesitantly climbing the scale. I find it rather beautiful actually. In between those sections, there's some of Shostakovich's Jewish-style dancing too. That's effectively the whole movement, alternating between those 2 things.

But it's the 2nd movement that is really something epic. This is where you get something that sounds like it's atonal, with that obsessive rhythm and weird shrieking trills. There's a quieter part minus the trills, but it's still essentially the same rhythm. Then you have chaotic runs before the trills and the quieter version interchange a little bit, even more chaotic runs... after maybe 7 minutes (obviously will depend on recording) all of this stops for a cello solo which gets interrupted by, and then accompanied by, what sound almost like muted horn calls from the other instruments, a kind of funeral procession.

About 11 minutes in you get pizzicato... and what it starts doing is a rather dramatised and nasty version of the 1st movement's climbing theme. This is where the battle really begins.    You get this warped version of the 1st movement climbing figure, a dash of the funeral music, and then some really violent pizzicato chords start happening. Then the funeral horn calls reappear... followed by a much calmer and more recognisable version of the 1st movement them, almost like a lullaby at this point. There's also a quote of the 1st movement's 'atonal' opening in there.

Now that calm has been achieved, the 2nd movement's obsessive rhythm and trills can creep back in. But now the rhythm knows it's in D flat major. The atonal elements try to fight back, but they keep losing as the rhythm keeps insisting on D flat major. There's plenty of spikiness, but the music in the last few minutes is most definitely in a key.

...I bloody love it.

Ah, this is excellent too, Madiel. Your descriptiveness is a great read, as well as being a great overview. Thank you.

Combining these comments and using them as keys that you have each found to unlock parts of the SQ's internal doors, is a great way for me to access parts and understand elements that would be so much harder alone. Your individual and technical maps are far better for me than hopeful personal guesswork, so I value all that you can give!