Dmitri's Dacha

Started by karlhenning, April 09, 2007, 08:13:49 AM

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relm1

#2980
Quote from: staxomega on November 13, 2022, 02:52:05 PMI've listened to M. Sanderling's cycle all the way through twice now, it's truly outstanding. If one wants modern sound M. Sanderling (no complete cycle from his old man, he was stunning in many of them), Petrenko or Caetani would all be easy recommendations.

I think Shostakovich is who I have the most number of complete symphony cycles of. Beethoven might eclipse him because of those big conductor box sets, but Shostakovich is the one I bought every single cycle separate from those conductor mega boxes. This music is too bloody good and varied in style.
I completed the traversal of Michael Sanderling's Shostakovich Symphony cycle.  It's a very fine cycle over all.  I see what staxomega means that it's a more "modern" sound to this cycle.  I thought highly of the first disc, Symphonies 1-3.  Nothing can hide the weak ending of No. 3 but the rest of the work faired better in this style of interpretation as a modernist work with a somewhat sterile interpretation rather than a late romantic interpretation.  I thought No. 1 and 2 were quite strong.  Not that impressed with his version of No. 4.  The competition is stiff and the climax here just felt underwhelming.  One of the things that I love about No. 4 is how it switched from modernism to post romanticism – bridging eras of the composer but also epochs of music.  I feel like Sanderling played it safe rather than on the brink of catastrophe which is a very important part of Shostakovich and his subtext.  No. 5 and 6 were admirable.  No. 7 pales to my favorite, Bernstein/CSO which was revelatory.  From 8 to 15, very solid.  I felt the cycle got better but I doubt any one of them tops my individual favorite list. 

The recording quality is crystal clear and modern.  This is a respectable interpretation but won't knock off my favorites.  To me, the best overall cycle is Haitink/LPO/RCO but any symphony has individual versions that are better from a different interpreter.  Okko Kamu/CBSO is my favorite No. 13 for example.  Kurt Sanderling is my favorite No .15.  I think quite highly of Maxim Shostakovich with the right orchestras – great with LSO and vintage Soviet.  Ok with Prague, the orchestra isn't up to the task.  For modern cycles, I quite like Petrenko/RLPO (his No. 5 is stronger than Michael Sanderling's) overall but  Petrenko's No. 11 was rushed compared to M. Sanderling. 

One quick point I failed to mention - hearing M. Sanderling cycle in sequence is probably the first time I've heard the entire cycle in sequence in decades and it does make me hear these in a new way and that's a very significant accomplishment as I've grown with these symphonies all my life.  I think there is something to be said for a conductor who makes you hear something you've heard thousands of times as if you've heard it anew even if it's not all to your taste.  It compels your attention and it's possible a more mainstream interpretation wouldn't do that.

Karl Henning

Quote from: relm1 on December 03, 2022, 04:02:19 PMI completed the traversal of Michael Sanderling's Shostakovich Symphony cycle.  It's a very fine cycle over all.  I see what staxomega means that it's a more "modern" sound to this cycle.  I thought highly of the first disc, Symphonies 1-3.  Nothing can hide the weak ending of No. 3 but the rest of the work faired better in this style of interpretation as a modernist work with a somewhat sterile interpretation rather than a late romantic interpretation.  I thought No. 1 and 2 were quite strong.  Not that impressed with his version of No. 4.  The competition is stiff and the climax here just felt underwhelming.  One of the things that I love about No. 4 is how it switched from modernism to post romanticism – bridging eras of the composer but also epochs of music.  I feel like Sanderling played it safe rather than on the brink of catastrophe which is a very important part of Shostakovich and his subtext.  No. 5 and 6 were admirable.  No. 7 pales to my favorite, Bernstein/CSO which was revelatory.  From 8 to 15, very solid.  I felt the cycle got better but I doubt any one of them tops my individual favorite list. 

The recording quality is crystal clear and modern.  This is a respectable interpretation but won't knock off my favorites.  To me, the best overall cycle is Haitink/LPO/RCO but any symphony has individual versions that are better from a different interpreter.  Okko Kamu/CBSO is my favorite No. 13 for example.  Kurt Sanderling is my favorite No .15.  I think quite highly of Maxim Shostakovich with the right orchestras – great with LSO and vintage Soviet.  Ok with Prague, the orchestra isn't up to the task.  For modern cycles, I quite like Petrenko/RLPO (his No. 5 is stronger than Michael Sanderling's) overall but  Petrenko's No. 11 was rushed compared to M. Sanderling. 

Very interesting, thanks.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brahmsian

These three being ordered from Presto:






DavidW

The Pacifica is my favorite set, and the Mandelring is laid back and melodic.  The antithesis of Pacifica.  They should complement each other well.

Brahmsian

Quote from: DavidW on February 16, 2023, 01:11:41 PMThe Pacifica is my favorite set, and the Mandelring is laid back and melodic.  The antithesis of Pacifica.  They should complement each other well.

I've had the Borodin Melodiya set and Fitzwilliam as well for quite some time. It will be a lot of fun to compare and contrast all four sets.

Maestro267

Something I thought about just now while posting in New Releases and it would fit better in here. Tier list of Shostakovich symphonies:

A: 4, 5, 7, 10, 11
B: 1, 6, 12
C: 8, 9, 13, 15
D: 2, 3, 14

Brahmsian

Quote from: Maestro267 on February 24, 2023, 04:15:34 AMSomething I thought about just now while posting in New Releases and it would fit better in here. Tier list of Shostakovich symphonies:

A: 4, 5, 7, 10, 11
B: 1, 6, 12
C: 8, 9, 13, 15
D: 2, 3, 14

Are these your personal favourites tiered?

Maestro267


Karl Henning

The Fourteenth was one of the first eight of the symphonies which I came to know. It may not be everyone's money, but I think it superb.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brahmsian

Quote from: Maestro267 on February 24, 2023, 04:15:34 AMSomething I thought about just now while posting in New Releases and it would fit better in here. Tier list of Shostakovich symphonies:

A: 4, 5, 7, 10, 11
B: 1, 6, 12
C: 8, 9, 13, 15
D: 2, 3, 14

My own list at the moment:

T1: 4,5
T2: 7,8,10,14,15
T3: 1,6,9,11
T4: 12,13
T5: 2,3

NO.12 use to in my personal favourite five in the earlier days.

JBS

Hmm, for me
T1 4/8/11
T1a 14 (the cantata structure and limited instrumentarium make me think it belongs in a different category, even if DSCH called it a symphony)
T2 5/7/10/12/13
T3 1/6/9/15
T4 2/3 (again, even if DSCH called them symphonies, I don't think of them as symphonies)

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

#2991
Quote from: Ephraim Bonus on February 24, 2023, 12:50:20 PMHmm, for me
T1 4/8/11
T1a 14 (the cantata structure and limited instrumentarium make me think it belongs in a different category, even if DSCH called it a symphony)
T2 5/7/10/12/13
T3 1/6/9/15
T4 2/3 (again, even if DSCH called them symphonies, I don't think of them as symphonies)
Most interesting. Viz. 2 & 3: It does nothing to gainsay your point, but at least in the case of the Second, the agit-prop dept of the State Publishing House specifically commissioned a "symphonic work," thus the designation ... the requirement of a symphony with a choral finale derived of course from the vulgar idolatry of the Beethoven Op. 125 (a piece which, as we both know, survives any misuse over the centuries.) No such requirement obtained for the Third, and I suppose Shostakovich stuck with the template for its having general appeal in that milieu.

As to the Fourteenth, in February 1966, Shostakovich wrote to his friend Izaak Glikman that he had started writing a  Fourteenth Symphony, to work on which he retired to Repino (outside Petersburg.) In fact, the piece proved to be the second Cello Concerto, conceived for Rostropovich, and which the composer later described as "a kind of fourteenth symphony with a solo cello part (which might anachronistically strike us as analogous to Harold en Italie.) While orchestrating Musorgsky's Songs and Dances of DeathShostakovich identified strongly with its angry protest against man's mere temporal existence (Elizabeth Wilson.) He wrote to Glikman on 1 Feb 1969 (from hospital) that he had begun an oratorio for two soli voices and chamber ensemble. On 17 Feb he reported having finished the piece: "I am not going to call it an oratorio — one can't, as an oratorio calls for a choir. My work doesn't include a choir, just two solo singers soprano and bass One probably couldn't call it a symphony either. For the first time in my life, I remain perplexed as to what name to give a composition of mine." So your dissatisfaction with the Op. 135's designation as a Symphony has a good pedigree.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

JBS

Thank you for that info.
It's interesting in light of that quote that he chose to call the 2nd Cello Concerto a concerto and not follow Prokofiev's example by calling it a Symphony Concertante.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

My pleasure, @Ephraim Bonus 
The post was a good excuse to crack open the Wilson afresh (which, in fact, rests on my nightstand) I was glad I checked because one thing I was going to type "from memory" turned out to be wrong, so I nipped that in the bud.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

aukhawk

T1:   1, 11, 15, Violin Concerto 1
T2:   5, Stephan Razin, Cello Concerto 1
T3:   6, 8, 9, 10, Cello Concerto 2

T4 (meh):  4, 7, 13, Violin Concerto 2, Piano Concerto 2
T5:   2, 3, 14, Piano Concerto 1

9th circle of hell:   ;D   12

Brahmsian

Quote from: aukhawk on February 25, 2023, 06:02:32 AM9th circle of hell:   ;D   12


 ;D

The Violin Concerto No. 1 would also be in my overall Shostakovich Tier 1.

Madiel

Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on February 24, 2023, 01:59:13 PMMost interesting. Viz. 2 & 3: It does nothing to gainsay your point, but at least in the case of the Second, the agit-prop dept of the State Publishing House specifically commissioned a "symphonic work," thus the designation ... the requirement of a symphony with a choral finale derived of course from the vulgar idolatry of the Beethoven Op. 125 (a piece which, as we both know, survives any misuse over the centuries.) No such requirement obtained for the Third, and I suppose Shostakovich stuck with the template for its having general appeal in that milieu.

As to the Fourteenth, in February 1966, Shostakovich wrote to his friend Izaak Glikman that he had started writing a  Fourteenth Symphony, to work on which he retired to Repino (outside Petersburg.) In fact, the piece proved to be the second Cello Concerto, conceived for Rostropovich, and which the composer later described as "a kind of fourteenth symphony with a solo cello part (which might anachronistically strike us as analogous to Harold en Italie.) While orchestrating Musorgsky's Songs and Dances of DeathShostakovich identified strongly with its angry protest against man's mere temporal existence (Elizabeth Wilson.) He wrote to Glikman on 1 Feb 1969 (from hospital) that he had begun an oratorio for two soli voices and chamber ensemble. On 17 Feb he reported having finished the piece: "I am not going to call it an oratorio — one can't, as an oratorio calls for a choir. My work doesn't include a choir, just two solo singers soprano and bass One probably couldn't call it a symphony either. For the first time in my life, I remain perplexed as to what name to give a composition of mine." So your dissatisfaction with the Op. 135's designation as a Symphony has a good pedigree.

If I recall correctly, he considered labelling the Michelangelo songs as symphony No.16. So just where the boundary lies on these things is an interesting question.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Karl Henning

Quote from: Madiel on February 25, 2023, 01:30:06 PMIf I recall correctly, he considered labelling the Michelangelo songs as symphony No.16. So just where the boundary lies on these things is an interesting question.
Berlioz really felt that Beethoven had released that horse from the barn: in his personal numeration, he simply considered the fantastique, Harold and R & J symphonies.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Albion

He was a great composer for the ballet and this is just such a brilliant set (CHAN 7000/1), Neeme Jarvi at his peppery best - even the "Festive Overture" which I normally can't abide zips along and awakens occasional interest, plus you get bits from "Lady Macbeth" in the guise of "Katerina Ismailova". The RSNO play like demons...




As with their frankly chaotic Bax catalogue, Chandos should box up all of their wonderful Shostakovich and Prokofiev and flog it far and wide.

;D
A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it. (SG, 1922)

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Albion on March 01, 2023, 04:45:15 PMHe was a great composer for the ballet and this is just such a brilliant set (CHAN 7000/1), Neeme Jarvi at his peppery best - even the "Festive Overture" which I normally can't abide zips along and awakens occasional interest, plus you get bits from "Lady Macbeth" in the guise of "Katerina Ismailova". The RSNO play like demons...




As with their frankly chaotic Bax catalogue, Chandos should box up all of their wonderful Shostakovich and Prokofiev and flog it far and wide.

;D

Agree absolutely - except I like the Festival Overture! - one of the great "what-might-have-beens" is if Jarvi had got to complete his Shostakovich cycle in Scotland.  So curious how when Jarvi 'left' Chandos that first time and went to DG his studio music-making went from exceptional to perfectly good but just a little generic.  His early years on Chandos in Scotland and BIS in Gothenburg are glorious.