Author Topic: Dmitri's Dacha  (Read 366532 times)

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Online Jo498

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2100 on: October 16, 2019, 09:40:49 AM »
I think the quintet is hard to "destroy". Richter/Borodin might be hard to find separately (I have it in the Melodiya Borodin Qt. box). There is a later Leonskaja/Borodin (with the Trio on Teldec/Warner) that's also good. As far as I recall I also liked the Naxos (Berman/Vermeer) although I might have kept this mainly for the Schnittke coupling.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2101 on: October 16, 2019, 11:01:07 AM »
I think the quintet is hard to "destroy". Richter/Borodin might be hard to find separately (I have it in the Melodiya Borodin Qt. box). There is a later Leonskaja/Borodin (with the Trio on Teldec/Warner) that's also good. As far as I recall I also liked the Naxos (Berman/Vermeer) although I might have kept this mainly for the Schnittke coupling.

I do think the Berman/Vermeer good. A fine disc.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2102 on: October 20, 2019, 07:01:07 AM »
I think the quintet is hard to "destroy". Richter/Borodin might be hard to find separately (I have it in the Melodiya Borodin Qt. box). There is a later Leonskaja/Borodin (with the Trio on Teldec/Warner) that's also good. As far as I recall I also liked the Naxos (Berman/Vermeer) although I might have kept this mainly for the Schnittke coupling.

Yes, that performance from Richter/Borodin Quartet is very difficult to find individually and one’s best bet to find it is in that Borodin Quartet set on Melodiya (which I own as well).
“Music is, for me, like a beautiful mosaic which God has put together. He takes all the pieces in his hand, throws them into the world, and we have to recreate the picture from the pieces.” - Jean Sibelius

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2103 on: October 20, 2019, 07:12:13 AM »
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
 ::)


Sorry for the late reply, but Petrenko’s cycle is pretty ho-hum to these ears. I don’t hear a conductor with anything interesting to say. One of the biggest disappointments of the Petrenko cycle was the 11th --- one of my personal favorites from Shostakovich. There’s a lot of listeners who like his cycle, but I could never truly appreciate it. I’m much more of a fan of Kondrashin, Haitink, Rozhdestvensky, (Kurt) Sanderling, Svetlanov, and Mravinsky.
“Music is, for me, like a beautiful mosaic which God has put together. He takes all the pieces in his hand, throws them into the world, and we have to recreate the picture from the pieces.” - Jean Sibelius

Online vandermolen

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2104 on: October 20, 2019, 08:26:05 AM »
Sorry for the late reply, but Petrenko’s cycle is pretty ho-hum to these ears. I don’t hear a conductor with anything interesting to say. One of the biggest disappointments of the Petrenko cycle was the 11th --- one of my personal favorites from Shostakovich. There’s a lot of listeners who like his cycle, but I could never truly appreciate it. I’m much more of a fan of Kondrashin, Haitink, Rozhdestvensky, (Kurt) Sanderling, Svetlanov, and Mravinsky.

Thanks very much for your views John. I forgot to mention that I also have the Rostropovich set as well.  ::)

We had a heavy rain, leaking roof scenario here yesterday and I'm not sure that my Malcolm Sargent box set of various works (not Shostakovich) will ever recover from this experience  ???
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2105 on: October 20, 2019, 08:44:55 AM »
Thanks very much for your views John. I forgot to mention that I also have the Rostropovich set as well.  ::)

We had a heavy rain, leaking roof scenario here yesterday and I'm not sure that my Malcolm Sargent box set of various works (not Shostakovich) will ever recover from this experience  ???

You’re welcome, Jeffrey. Sorry to hear of the leaking roof. I hope nothing got damaged besides the Malcolm Sargent box set.
“Music is, for me, like a beautiful mosaic which God has put together. He takes all the pieces in his hand, throws them into the world, and we have to recreate the picture from the pieces.” - Jean Sibelius

Online vandermolen

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2106 on: October 20, 2019, 09:40:57 AM »
You’re welcome, Jeffrey. Sorry to hear of the leaking roof. I hope nothing got damaged besides the Malcolm Sargent box set.

Thank you my friend!

OT

A few books had to be thrown out including 'The Annotated Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' but I have already received an inexpensive replacement via Amazon Prime. My wife is always pleased to see books or CDs disappear from the house!  ::)

PS I should add that this is nothing compared to a tree crashing through your house last year.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 09:43:15 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2107 on: October 20, 2019, 09:54:14 AM »
Thank you my friend!

OT

A few books had to be thrown out including 'The Annotated Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' but I have already received an inexpensive replacement via Amazon Prime. My wife is always pleased to see books or CDs disappear from the house!  ::)

PS I should add that this is nothing compared to a tree crashing through your house last year.

Hah! Yeah, I’m sure my mom would love to see ALL of my CDs disappear. :D The tree crashing into my house actually happened in 2017 and this was from the remnants of Hurricane Irma, which had been downgraded to a tropical storm. I never in my life have seen wind like this, but thankfully, we had almost every tree removed from our property and the only ones left are ones that aren’t even close to the house. It’s always nice to have a little shade, especially when Georgia summers are concerned. :)
“Music is, for me, like a beautiful mosaic which God has put together. He takes all the pieces in his hand, throws them into the world, and we have to recreate the picture from the pieces.” - Jean Sibelius

Online vandermolen

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2108 on: October 20, 2019, 10:32:21 AM »
Hah! Yeah, I’m sure my mom would love to see ALL of my CDs disappear. :D The tree crashing into my house actually happened in 2017 and this was from the remnants of Hurricane Irma, which had been downgraded to a tropical storm. I never in my life have seen wind like this, but thankfully, we had almost every tree removed from our property and the only ones left are ones that aren’t even close to the house. It’s always nice to have a little shade, especially when Georgia summers are concerned. :)

Good to hear John. All the best to you.  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2109 on: October 20, 2019, 10:47:57 AM »
Good to hear John. All the best to you.  :)

And the same to you, Jeffrey.
“Music is, for me, like a beautiful mosaic which God has put together. He takes all the pieces in his hand, throws them into the world, and we have to recreate the picture from the pieces.” - Jean Sibelius

Online Jo498

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2110 on: October 20, 2019, 12:33:39 PM »
There was a separate issue of the Richter/Borodin, but it would be hard to find used. The Leonskaja/Borodin is quite good and seems available

ASIN: B00000DNI0

Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Herman

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2111 on: November 08, 2019, 01:45:15 AM »
One other thing, Soviet (and Eastern European) trumpets have a vibrato in their trumpet playing that Western players do not.  It is very jarring especially to brass players to hear that and you get loads of it in Soviet era recordings.  Add to that, the music is typically so loud that the levels distort.  Fine audio is NOT the strength of these recordings.  But they are a uniquely authentic in their interpretation so worth hearing and preserving for that reason, however, rarely my go to versions.    I prefer sonic and performance clarity over raw power.

This was about the Kondrashin recordings, which I bought when they were quite affordable (on Aulos, I believe a whole bunch of GMG-folk got those fifteen years or so ago). I have been listening to Symphony nr 10 lately, various recordings, and Kondrashin is just outstanding for its drive, and yes for its horn vibrato in the Elmira motiv. I love it, because it's so characteristic, and it is, most likely, what DSCH was used to  -  although one can never be sure about that. Maybe the vibrato came in the post-war years; I have a pretty strong feeling Tchaikovsky was used to a much more delicate way of orchestral playing; otherwise it wouldn'y have made sense to compose things like Sleeping Beauty.

I'm awaiting the Petrenko nr 10 now.

I have a lot of the Haitink recordings, they would in many case be my as if imprint recordings. Their downside is, especially in the Concertgebouw recordings, the huge artificial reverb added by the engineers, just to suggest the Concertgebouw experience. Having been in the Concertgebouw I can honestly say I have never heard the reverb one hears in the recording of DSCH8. Some of these recordings were also rather first-off. For instance, nr 10 was recorded with the London Philharmonic after a 1975 tour to Europe, including Moscow, where Haitink briefly met the composer. Haitink and the orchestra had never played nr 10 before this tour.

One can tell Haitink loves the symphony (also for its many echoes of Tchaikovsky 4) and in a youtube video one can see the conductor reverently putting his flowers on his copy of the score (Haitink is this unique conductor who always hated the applause afterwards). However if one hears the Proms 1986 (?) recording of the same work with the same orchestra, one can hear he needed those intervening years to fully grasp this work.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 01:48:42 AM by Herman »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2112 on: November 08, 2019, 04:30:44 AM »
This was about the Kondrashin recordings, which I bought when they were quite affordable (on Aulos, I believe a whole bunch of GMG-folk got those fifteen years or so ago). I have been listening to Symphony nr 10 lately, various recordings, and Kondrashin is just outstanding for its drive, and yes for its horn vibrato in the Elmira motiv. I love it, because it's so characteristic, and it is, most likely, what DSCH was used to  -  although one can never be sure about that. Maybe the vibrato came in the post-war years; I have a pretty strong feeling Tchaikovsky was used to a much more delicate way of orchestral playing; otherwise it wouldn'y have made sense to compose things like Sleeping Beauty.

I'm awaiting the Petrenko nr 10 now.

I have a lot of the Haitink recordings, they would in many case be my as if imprint recordings. Their downside is, especially in the Concertgebouw recordings, the huge artificial reverb added by the engineers, just to suggest the Concertgebouw experience. Having been in the Concertgebouw I can honestly say I have never heard the reverb one hears in the recording of DSCH8. Some of these recordings were also rather first-off. For instance, nr 10 was recorded with the London Philharmonic after a 1975 tour to Europe, including Moscow, where Haitink briefly met the composer. Haitink and the orchestra had never played nr 10 before this tour.

One can tell Haitink loves the symphony (also for its many echoes of Tchaikovsky 4) and in a youtube video one can see the conductor reverently putting his flowers on his copy of the score (Haitink is this unique conductor who always hated the applause afterwards). However if one hears the Proms 1986 (?) recording of the same work with the same orchestra, one can hear he needed those intervening years to fully grasp this work.

Most interesting.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline aukhawk

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2113 on: November 09, 2019, 02:46:47 AM »
Quote
One other thing, Soviet (and Eastern European) trumpets have a vibrato in their trumpet playing that Western players do not.  It is very jarring especially to brass players to hear that and you get loads of it in Soviet era recordings.  Add to that, the music is typically so loud that the levels distort.  Fine audio is NOT the strength of these recordings.  But they are a uniquely authentic in their interpretation so worth hearing and preserving for that reason, however, rarely my go to versions.    I prefer sonic and performance clarity over raw power.
This was about the Kondrashin recordings, which I bought when they were quite affordable (on Aulos, I believe a whole bunch of GMG-folk got those fifteen years or so ago). I have been listening to Symphony nr 10 lately, various recordings, and Kondrashin is just outstanding for its drive, and yes for its horn vibrato in the Elmira motiv. I love it, because it's so characteristic, and it is, most likely, what DSCH was used to  -  although one can never be sure about that. ...

Reading this, I thought - DSCH's first symphonic note is a trumpet - the slightly strangled clarion call that opens Symphony No.1 - that HAS to be played with vibrato surely??  In my mind's eye - or mind's ear - it certainly is.  But - checking my three favoured recordings of that symphony (Wigglesworth, Ormandy, Caetani, in no particular order) - only Ormandy's Philadelphia starts out with slight vibrato (and I've commented on the vintage 'Philadelphia sound' before in a more general way).  The other two play it very straight although all three introduce vibrato to greater or lesser degree on the trumpet calls when they are reprised later on in the symphony.
Then I listened to Kondrashin/Moscow (on Spotify) - and even there the opening trumpet note is, well, 'shaped' but not really with much suggestion of wobble.  But boy, does he trample over the rest of that music!  Definitely the worst First 1st I've heard (I stopped at the end of the 1st movement).

On the subject of soviet-era Melodiya sound quality - my eye was caught recently by a High-Res transfer of Stepan Razin (Kondrashin) which is a recording I greatly admire and have on vinyl and needledropped.  Fortunately the vendors offer a try-before-you-buy 2-minute sample of each of their offerings, so I took advantage of this to compare their 24/96 download to my needledrop.  I was surprised and disappointed to find that the 24/96 was seriously compressed dynamically, compared with my vinyl that dates back to when it was first released.  Of course the needledrop has some disadvantages in terms of surface noise, so I was then piqued to investigate the 'standard digital' version available on Spotify.  I recorded the same 2-minute section (illegal, but this was just in a spirit of scientific curiosity) and on comparison this time I found that this clip (from Spotify) has much more dynamic range than the vinyl, as well of course as an absence of clicks and pops (though I find clicks and pops work quite well during the 'fleas' episode   8) ).
Of the three - digital remaster in a 'big box' as lossily streamed by Spotify - high-res digital transfer "from an Angel 4-track" - and my vintage vinyl - the offering on Spotify is clearly and audibly the best.  Obviously, Kondrashin enthusiasts looking for better sound should investigate that 11-CD box set.



(I should add that I have in the past bought a couple of other high-res remasters of classic recordings from the same vendor - that is HDTT, and been reasonably satisfied - results seem variable and it's to their credit that they offer a free sample in each case.)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 02:59:03 AM by aukhawk »

Offline Herman

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2114 on: November 09, 2019, 04:53:43 AM »
Haitink and the orchestra had never played nr 10 before this tour.


Self-correction. The London Philharmonic had played DSCH nr 10 in 1955 'under the baton' of Boult.


Offline Herman

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2115 on: November 09, 2019, 05:12:51 AM »
As far as one can tell after two listenings the Petrenko recording of nr 10 is just fine.
He keeps the drama a little low in the third movement, so as not to preempt the finale, which is pretty good.

It must be strange to work with an orchestra where almost the entire brass section is composed of men named Simon.
Does one hear they're all British, and not one Eastern European / Russian? One does.

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2116 on: November 09, 2019, 08:00:09 AM »
As far as one can tell after two listenings the Petrenko recording of nr 10 is just fine.
He keeps the drama a little low in the third movement, so as not to preempt the finale, which is pretty good.

It must be strange to work with an orchestra where almost the entire brass section is composed of men named Simon.
Does one hear they're all British, and not one Eastern European / Russian? One does.

Aye, the Petrenko Tenth is nice.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2117 on: November 10, 2019, 01:11:18 AM »
Self-correction. The London Philharmonic had played DSCH nr 10 in 1955 'under the baton' of Boult.

The LPO recorded No.10 with (a very young) Andrew Davis for CFP


Offline relm1

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2118 on: November 10, 2019, 07:33:37 AM »
Listened to this yesterday, thought it was a very fine performance and recording.

Offline Herman

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Re: Dmitri's Dacha
« Reply #2119 on: November 12, 2019, 01:18:47 AM »
After having Petrenko's Tenth in the CD-player for a couple of days I can say I am quite persuaded by this recording.
It is the one recording I have that brings me to the finale; in other cases I was often satisfied after the 3d movement.
Obviously this means (as I said before) Petrenko de-emphasizes the Tchaikovskean 3d movement a bit so as to preserve listener energy for the finale.
That's a good approach.
At the start I thought "this is not going to be as good as the more spontaneous, liveish recordings of the past." I can't help being aware that a recording like this is made in an endless number of split sessions. However, in listening one is caught up in the long line and its excitement.
Another thing is I do miss the Russian horn playing a bit. The Liverpool woodwinds however are excellent.
Doggone I may try Petrenko's 14th or 15th, too.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 01:22:30 AM by Herman »