Dmitri's Dacha

[Pohjolas Daughter]

It was the LA Philharmonic.  Fantastic performance!  The audience was still filling in when I took the picture, so it wasn't as sparse as it seems.  Every work received an instant standing ovation.  I was just two or three rows behind the percussion, and I forgot how loud percussion is in this symphony but it was a wonderful experience played with power and precision.

OK, now I'm really envious! Disney Hall is one of my favorite venues in the world (after going about a dozen times when it opened). Big fan of Ludovic Morlot, too. And coincidentally, I'm hearing Sergio Tiempo soon, here in Philadelphia. Alas, he's not playing Prokofiev, nor the Ginastera originally programmed, but the Chopin No. 1 (which I don't care for).

Anyway, thanks for sharing the experience, and the great photo. The interior of the hall is stunning.

--Bruce

Looks like it!  Love all of the woodwork!  Very chic and modern. 

PD

[Roasted Swan]

Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)



so I might not be wholly objective here(!) but goodness these are GREAT performances!!!!!

[Mirror Image]

Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)



so I might not be wholly objective here(!) but goodness these are GREAT performances!!!!!

There's something about these older Soviet Era recordings that just can't be beat. And not just Kondrashin, but Svetlanov, Rozhdestvensky, Mravinsky et. al. as well. They knew this music incredibly well and knew that the best way to get across is by sheer emotional impact and playing as if "your life depended on it". The whole no holds barred attitude is why they're successful. Too many conductors get on the podium these days and micromanage everything instead of just letting the music speak for itself. One can control an orchestra, but they also need to know when to unleash the dogs. This is something that doesn't happen a lot these days unfortunately. They're so worried about playing out-of-tune or making a mistake and believe that it must be "note perfect". I'm sorry, but this just doesn't work in Shostakovich. Anyway, this is my roundabout way of saying, I agree with you.

[Roasted Swan]

There's something about these older Soviet Era recordings that just can't be beat. And not just Kondrashin, but Svetlanov, Rozhdestvensky, Mravinsky et. al. as well. They knew this music incredibly well and knew that the best way to get across is by sheer emotional impact and playing as if "your life depended on it". The whole no holds barred attitude is why they're successful. Too many conductors get on the podium these days and micromanage everything instead of just letting the music speak for itself. One can control an orchestra, but they also need to know when to unleash the dogs. This is something that doesn't happen a lot these days unfortunately. They're so worried about playing out-of-tune or making a mistake and believe that it must be "note perfect". I'm sorry, but this just doesn't work in Shostakovich. Anyway, this is my roundabout way of saying, I agree with you.

Absolutely agree with the other Soviet conducotrs you mention and indeed everything else you say.  Interestingly, I was listneing just last week to this version of the "Leningrad"



which seems to have had generally very positive reviews.  But my overall reaction was "well-played but...meh..."  In fact your description of micro-managing and being perfect exactly fits what I feel about this performance.  Love or loath the Leningrad its a work that needs to be "unleashed" and played as a matter of life or death.  That was part of the reason I returned to the Kondrashin set yesterday - to reset my inner ear!

[Herman]

I'm iffy about this issue. Yeah, I like some of the old USSR recordings, too. However there seems to be a cliché that Russian music (including Tchaikovsky, who really wanted to compose French music) should be played with urgency overriding beauty, and I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive things.

[vandermolen]

Yes, there's something very special about those old Kondrashin/USSR SO recordings (I recently bought the CD coupling symphonies 3 and 5). The same goes for his unrivalled recordings of Miaskovsky's 6th and 15th symphonies.

[Roasted Swan]

I'm iffy about this issue. Yeah, I like some of the old USSR recordings, too. However there seems to be a cliché that Russian music (including Tchaikovsky, who really wanted to compose French music) should be played with urgency overriding beauty, and I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive things.

I know what you mean - and this is where the issue of "imprinting" is definitely a factor for each listener.  I completely accept that for DSCH my inner ear 'hears' the old Soviet sound pre-eminently.  I would disagree with you regarding Russian as opposed to Soviet music.  I do think Tchaikovsky needs to be played with passion and drama but I am not sure that those qualities are always best served by the old Soviet/Brutalist school of orchestral playing(!)  I adore Svetlanov nearly without reservation but his version of "The Nutcracker" is quite horrible - but then Mravinsky's/Leningrad Pathetique is genuinely one of the great performances. 

I think Mirror Image's description/concern of micro-managing and placing precision above passion is very valid and that perhaps DSCH is less well served than some composers by that approach....?

[DavidW]

Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again? 

That is one of my favorite sets.  Kondrashin's real strength is that he keeps the momentum up in the slow movements so that the musical is lyrical without turning into an indulgant slog.  But I like the very balanced Petrenko and Barshai sets just as much and the SQ in those sets is far superior. 

I think that there is also a set of the symphonies conducted by all the different great Russian conductors and they have some really fine performances.  My favorite 8th comes from Mravinsky.

[relm1]

That is one of my favorite sets.  Kondrashin's real strength is that he keeps the momentum up in the slow movements so that the musical is lyrical without turning into an indulgant slog.  But I like the very balanced Petrenko and Barshai sets just as much and the SQ in those sets is far superior. 

I think that there is also a set of the symphonies conducted by all the different great Russian conductors and they have some really fine performances.  My favorite 8th comes from Mravinsky.

How does Mavrinsky's No. 8 compare with Haitink's No. 8 on Decca?

[krummholz]

How does Mavrinsky's No. 8 compare with Haitink's No. 8 on Decca?

Isn't Mravinsky's the one with the odd recording flaw that causes it to be pitched up a semitone?

It's been a long time since I heard the Mravinsky so I can't compare the two readings, but I find Haitink's 8th superb.

[aukhawk]

That is supposedly fixed in the latest reissues.

I rather agree with the appreciation of Soviet-era orchestras, conductors and recordings for Shostakovich.  And so in consequence I've never warmed to Haitink's cycle which is the antithesis of all these things.  Although I did buy many of them back in the day, because at the time they felt like a big upgrade over the Melodiya issues.  I never play them now.

[Jo498]

Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)

This seems not the "pure Kondrashin" but the "mixed Melodiya" set. Was the mix always the same? (I think it existed in a CD incarnation early on but later it was usually only Kondrashin?)
From an LP guide I find
Kondrashin 1-6,8,9,11,13
Svetlanov 7, 10
Mravinsky 12
Barshai 14 [there was also one with Rostropovich instead of Barshai]
Maxim Dmitrievich S. 15

[Roasted Swan]

This seems not the "pure Kondrashin" but the "mixed Melodiya" set. Was the mix always the same? (I think it existed in a CD incarnation early on but later it was usually only Kondrashin?)
From an LP guide I find
Kondrashin 1-6,8,9,11,13
Svetlanov 7, 10
Mravinsky 12
Barshai 14 [there was also one with Rostropovich instead of Barshai]
Maxim Dmitrievich S. 15

This LP box set was the original/only option for a complete set of the symphonies and actually the choices were well made.  The Maxim 5 & 15 were excellent, Barshai conducted the premiere of 14, Mravinsky's 12 made it seem like a serious work and Svetlanov is very good in his two as well.  On CD early on there was a Kondrashin only cycle originally on French melodiya (I think) which has had various iterations since.  As far as I know this exact LP box has never been repeated exactly on CD although of course individual performances do exist - not sure the Maxim No.5 has made it to CD?

[Mirror Image]

Absolutely agree with the other Soviet conducotrs you mention and indeed everything else you say.  Interestingly, I was listneing just last week to this version of the "Leningrad"



which seems to have had generally very positive reviews.  But my overall reaction was "well-played but...meh..."  In fact your description of micro-managing and being perfect exactly fits what I feel about this performance.  Love or loath the Leningrad its a work that needs to be "unleashed" and played as a matter of life or death.  That was part of the reason I returned to the Kondrashin set yesterday - to reset my inner ear!

I think the Leningrad is a phenomenal piece of music. It really is. The Adagio alone contains some of Shostakovich's most heartbreaking music. I can understand how such a symphony could come under scrutiny by the "classical police" and all those pesky, artsy-fartsy holier-than-thou critics who turn their nose up at anything that isn't Beethoven or Brahms. Thankfully, this kind of mentality has never seeped its way into my own thinking. Anyway, I haven't heard any of those Noseda recordings, but considering how much I dislike The Barbican's acoustic, I doubt I'd ever give these performances a listen --- dry, hollowed out sound in this hall. But, yes, I think the problem with many of these conductors today is their quest for perfection over excitement and pedal-to-the-metal emotional drive, which is something that works wonders in Shostakovich and a lot of these Soviet Era composers.

[Mirror Image]

I'm iffy about this issue. Yeah, I like some of the old USSR recordings, too. However there seems to be a cliché that Russian music (including Tchaikovsky, who really wanted to compose French music) should be played with urgency overriding beauty, and I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive things.

Indeed. Not every Russian composer fits into the no-holds-barred Soviet Era conducting style. I'm thinking here of Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition, Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade, Lyadov's The Enchanted Lake and countless other examples. These works do not do well with this kind of conducting, so I'll definitely agree with you in this respect.

[aukhawk]

I can understand how such a symphony could come under scrutiny by the "classical police" and all those pesky, artsy-fartsy holier-than-thou critics who turn their nose up at anything that isn't Beethoven or Brahms.

It's nothing to do with Beethoven or Brahms.  It's simply that with Shostakovich, there's a lot of 2nd-rate (or worse) mixed in with the good.  For me, life is far too short to spend time on anything less than excellent.

Anyhoo, even though I don't like the Leningrad, here is a very good free-to-view video stream of it conducted by that micro-manager-in-chief, Teodor Currentzis (SWRO) :
https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/aexavarticle-swr-83346.html

He brings entertainment to the long boring march by bringing the various orchestral sections to their feet in turn - Count Basie-style.

[Herman]

How does Mavrinsky's No. 8 compare with Haitink's No. 8 on Decca?

Some of Haitink's DSCH cycle is terrific, the only problem with the Concertgebouw 8th is the Decca folks really went to town on rendering the famed concertgebouw acoustic, creating a caricature of reverb which isn't really convenient in this music (same with the eighties Beethoven cycle on Philips).

I have sat in this hall a lot and I have never heard what I'm hearing on this DCH8 disc. Hilariously, Chandos does the same engineering trick with the Nat Scottish Orchestra.

[Madiel]

The long march in the Leningrad isn't boring if it's done well. The only recording I know is Petrenko... and I find it gripping.

[krummholz]

Some of Haitink's DSCH cycle is terrific, the only problem with the Concertgebouw 8th is the Decca folks really went to town on rendering the famed concertgebouw acoustic, creating a caricature of reverb which isn't really convenient in this music (same with the eighties Beethoven cycle on Philips).

I have sat in this hall a lot and I have never heard what I'm hearing on this DCH8 disc. Hilariously, Chandos does the same engineering trick with the Nat Scottish Orchestra.

Interesting. I have both recordings, and I've never noticed excessive reverb on either. Of the two, I find the Haitink far more gripping than the Jarvi (I assume that's the NSO disc you're referring to).

[Herman]

Neeme Järvi is just not such a great conductor.