Dmitri's Dacha

Started by karlhenning, April 09, 2007, 08:13:49 AM

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Karl Henning

Fine post, Jeffrey; and I certainly respect the "interesting, but not my bag" viewpoint.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Karl, you made a good post, but it doesn't change my view of the works too much. I understand you're trying to defend music you like which there's nothing wrong with that. Russia knew Shostakovich was a prodigious talent or else his Symphony No. 1 wouldn't have been so highly acclaimed. That is a fine symphony no question about it. I just feel the 2nd and 3rd fall short musically. The 2nd is a better work IMHO than the 3rd because I can get onboard with the wild orchestration and general manic musical feel that permeates much of the first half of the symphony. I dig that, but when compared with what came after these symphonies I'm left scratching my head. We could take these two symphonies on their own merits perhaps, but even when doing that I feel a bit letdown. Shostakovich wrote a good bit of propaganda music -- some of it good, some of it horrible. I would say the 2nd and the 3rd fall somewhere between. They're not great works, but they're not necessarily terrible either. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 08:08:02 AM
Karl, you made a good post, but it doesn't change my view of the works too much. I understand you're trying to defend music you like which there's nothing wrong with that.

Thanks, John. I don't believe that it was so much a matter of defending music I like (on the whole, these two early symphonies do not break into my 30 Favorite Shostakovich Pieces list), as (viz. my early indication in the WAYLT thread) inviting a richer understanding of the pieces. I certainly entertained no dream of convincing you to like them better (is such an external process of conviction even possible?)

So, I am content that my post is reasonably good ; )
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 08:18:50 AM
Thanks, John. I don't believe that it was so much a matter of defending music I like (on the whole, these two early symphonies do not break into my 30 Favorite Shostakovich Pieces list), as (viz. my early indication in the WAYLT thread) inviting a richer understanding of the pieces. I certainly entertained no dream of convincing you to like them better (is such an external process of conviction even possible?)

So, I am content that my post is reasonably good ; )

Well, it's always a pleasure to read people's thoughts about Shostakovich and you articulated yourself very well. I do wish, however, that people would try and explore more lesser-known Shostakovich music. I mean there are many folks I've spoken with that haven't even heard The Golden Age yet. I need to spin the 2nd and 3rd again and re-evaluate my opinion on them. That's one thing I enjoy about you Karl. You always end making me question my own opinion. :D And in most cases, I wind up being glad I paid the particular works in question a revisit.

Karl Henning

New Babylon ... someday, I'm going to listen to it!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 08:29:50 AM
New Babylon ... someday, I'm going to listen to it!

New Babylon is cool, Karl. You'll enjoy it I think. I don't own the new recording of it on Naxos. I own the older James Judd recording.

North Star

Great post on the 2nd and 3rd, Karl. I haven't listened to them too much, but from what I recall, I didn't find them bad at all, just not of the quality that the others are. Another obvious example of a propaganda piece would be Alexander Nevsky - while it isn't maybe on the same level as Violin Sonata no. 1, or much of the piano music, it's certainly not bad music.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

not edward

Personal view: I certainly don't write off the 2nd and 3rd; there are certainly many striking moments in both even if they pale in comparison to the 4th. I'd be interested to know why DSCH told his son that he should not conduct these two--whether it related to the sung texts, perceived musical failings, both, or other things.

I do wonder whether DSCH may have had a particularly negative view of these two symphonies as a result of comparing them to Gavriil Popov's 1st symphony, the first version of which was written around the same time as Shostakovich's 3rd. This symphony shares similar concerns with the instrumental movements of DSCH 2 and 3, but IMO is far more ambitious and effective--and I think it'd be easy to make a case that the massive increase in confidence and musical ambition seen in the 4th (as well as the "Mahlerian" rhetoric in that work) comes from having seen Popov's symphony as pointing out key elements of the way forward that DSCH seems to have been casting about for in the 2nd and 3rd.

Of course, this way forward didn't last long, for either DSCH (who adapted to the changed circumstances) or Popov (who didn't).
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Mirror Image

And now it's time for a direct question to Karl: have you heard The Golden Age yet? If not, this is the recording to get:



There are two other performances on CD: one of them with Rozhdestvensky conducting the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic and the other with Yuri Simonov conducting the Bolshoi Orchestra, which I haven't heard.

P.S. Sorry if this question is redundant. I wasn't sure if I asked you yet.

Karl Henning

I still have not, yet.  I mean, not most of it . . . two numbers from it, I think.

That sort of direct question I do not mind; it's relevant
: )
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
I still have not, yet.  I mean, not most of it . . . two numbers from it, I think.

That sort of direct question I do not mind; it's relevant
: )

Please make time for it, Karl. You'll really enjoy it. Maybe listen to it over the weekend. Also please listen to Schnittke's Peer Gynt. These two ballets make a nice contrast. :)

eyeresist

Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 07:16:56 AMAnother obvious fact about the two symphonies is that they were commissions as 'public works', and (to be sure) the final choral fooferaw was in both cases the raison d'être for the commission.  Does the fact of the public commission invalidate the entire artistic endeavor?
...
For my ears personally, the flaws of the choral texts (mediocrity of both style and content . . . third-pressing Mayakovsky, if you like) are of less import than the panache of the choral writing.  (I could even consider the texts of a certain type of interest, as historical artifacts, but set that aside at present.) There is a musical élan in the execution of both these symphonies which, on its own merit, I find worthwhile.
...
The other aspect of the Second and Third Symphonies which my ears treasure are, they are an important part of the limited view we have of the precocious talent to which Shostakovich gave rein before the necessity of self-policing came into force, after the notorious Pravda editorial.

Regarding the commissions, as I recall from the Wilson book, one of the remarkable things about the 3rd is that it was NOT commissioned but written "on spec". In late 20s Russia it was still possible for a young Shostakovich to buy into the potential of communism for positive social change.

Musically the two symphonies contain some of the most avant garde stuff he ever wrote. The choral finales aren't great but I don't think they invalidate what comes before. The real problem for me with these works is that they don't hang together structurally. If Shosty wasn't such a giant, I could almost imagine someone taking the best bits of 2 and 3 and rearranging them into a "proper" symphonic work (or a ballet?).


Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 06:52:21 AMI have a recording of Sitkovetsky performing Bartok's VCs and I didn't enjoy his playing at all. I've pretty avoided anything recorded by him ever since. Try out Khachatryan, Steinbacher, and Batiashvili. I'm sure you'll enjoy at least one of these performances.

Also added Kaler/Wit and Mordkovitch/Jarvi to this list. Can you recall exactly what you disliked about the Mordkovitch?


Quote from: North Star on July 11, 2012, 09:27:07 AMAnother obvious example of a propaganda piece would be Alexander Nevsky
I think you'll find yourself in a small minority with that opinion! Nevsky is more an example of a work which wasn't troubled too much by the censors because it was on a patriotic subject.

Mirror Image

Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PMAlso added Kaler/Wit and Mordkovitch/Jarvi to this list. Can you recall exactly what you disliked about the Mordkovitch?

I really disliked Mordkovitch's tone and just her interpretation. She ruined the Passacaglia movement with her rough-and-ready approach to violin. Reminds of me of why I dislike Vengerov.

North Star

Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PMI think you'll find yourself in a small minority with that opinion! Nevsky is more an example of a work which wasn't troubled too much by the censors because it was on a patriotic subject.

But how does this differ from Shosty's 2nd and 3rd?
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Karl Henning

Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PM
Regarding the commissions, as I recall from the Wilson book, one of the remarkable things about the 3rd is that it was NOT commissioned but written "on spec". In late 20s Russia it was still possible for a young Shostakovich to buy into the potential of communism for positive social change.

Thanks for reminding me to go back to sources! Meanwhile . . . his having written it "on spec" is a point which, of itself, does not indicate what the composer may or may not "buy into";  I seem to remember it being a matter of plying the network, so to say.  Need to scare up the Fay!

Quote from: eyeresistMusically the two symphonies contain some of the most avant garde stuff he ever wrote. The choral finales aren't great but I don't think they invalidate what comes before. The real problem for me with these works is that they don't hang together structurally. If Shosty wasn't such a giant, I could almost imagine someone taking the best bits of 2 and 3 and rearranging them into a "proper" symphonic work (or a ballet?).

I should agree that they don't hang together structurally (and that the Fourth, for all its Grandiosomania, is held together soundly by marvelous, steely motivic cables running through, and therefore represents a marvelous leap forward) . . . but (a) in their scale, I don't find that any grave fault, and (b) as formal experiments, again, I find them a fascinating snapshot of the composer at the time — and, for all their musical profligacy, I find them a show of rare musical strength.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

eyeresist

Quote from: North Star on July 12, 2012, 03:40:53 AMBut how does this differ from Shosty's 2nd and 3rd?

Wha...?

2 and 3 supposedly symbolise the revolutionary struggle through music, and conclude with texts praising the Bolshevik revolution.
Nevsky tells the exciting story of a Russian hero of medieval times. No point trying to conflate these just to try to make a point.

kishnevi

Finished the Decca box of song cycles this morning. 
[asin]B000FG4KBY[/asin]
I found the orchestral cycles superior to the piano cycles, although I think they should have gone with someone other than DFD to sing the Captain Lebyadkin songs (or maybe DSCH wanted something that abrasive and hateful sounding....)
Musically, they sound rather like you would expect DSCH to sound, with vocal soloist added.....Since it's my first listen to most of the songs, and not just to the performances, I'd rather not say too much more than that.  (Two of the cycles, conducted by Haitink with the Concertgebouw and different singers, are included in the Haitink set of the symphonies. )  The performances in this set feature N. Jarvi conducting the Gothenburg SO.   Both the orchestral and piano versions of the Michelangelo songs are included.  On the piano songs,  Vladimir Ashkenazy is on duty at the keyboard.
It's a 5 CD set;  the fourth and fifth CDs are taken up by Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk in the Chung/Bastille Opera recording.  I found myself more interested and more emotionally involved by the Rostropovich recording on EMI.


eyeresist

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2012, 06:42:18 PMIt's a 5 CD set;  the fourth and fifth CDs are taken up by Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk in the Chung/Bastille Opera recording.  I found myself more interested and more emotionally involved by the Rostropovich recording on EMI.
Perhaps the high estimation of the Rostro is yet another example of reality not matching received wisdom?

I already have the Chung recording, so now there is the pained question of duplication to consider....

kishnevi

Quote from: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Perhaps the high estimation of the Rostro is yet another example of reality not matching received wisdom?

I already have the Chung recording, so now there is the pained question of duplication to consider....

No, no, I like the Rostropovich better! 
As for this box, since you already have 40% of it--I'd suggest looking for the first two CDs as individual items, and alternate versions of the songs with piano--although the 7 Romances on Poems of A. Blok (which has a vocalist and chamber ensemble) has a good performance on that CD.   It's the DFD that's the main stumbling block.

Karl Henning

Quote from: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Perhaps the high estimation of the Rostro is yet another example of reality not matching received wisdom?

I already have the Chung recording, so now there is the pained question of duplication to consider....

Jeffrey has already interposed . . . but Slava is the classic account.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 13, 2012, 08:23:56 AM
. . .  It's the DFD that's the main stumbling block.

Yes . . . I had that disc already as a Decca cut-out via BRO, so I knew that all the rest would be uphill : )

I don't think DF-D would have committed that offense upon the Capt. Lebyadkin Verses if he had actually read the Dostoyevsky.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot