Dmitri's Dacha

[Fafner]

After re-visiting the Petrenko/RLPO 5th, it is nowhere nearly as I bad as I once thought.  The only (and it's my own personal viewpoint) 'problem' I have is with the coda to the symphony, which I find Petrenko/RLPO take it a little too slow (it is missing that propulsive momentum).

The fact that it is missing that propulsive momentum is the entire point of this interpretation. It should feel forced and dragging and leave the audience cringing, wishing for release.
I personally much prefer this slower approach to the one employed by Bernstein and Haitink. I just think that both Petrenko and Kreizberg take it a touch too far.

[Brahmsian]

The fact that it is missing that propulsive momentum is the entire point of this interpretation. It should feel forced and dragging and leave the audience cringing, wishing for release.
I personally much prefer this slower approach to the one employed by Bernstein and Haitink. I just think that both Petrenko and Kreizberg take it a touch too far.

FWIW, I agree that Bernstein's take feels WAY, WAY too fast!!

I like Barshai/WDR's take with the 5th's coda.  Seems 'just right'.  Again, just my personal preference.

[Karl Henning]

. . . I personally much prefer this slower approach to the one employed by Bernstein and Haitink. I just think that both Petrenko and Kreizberg take it a touch too far.

I feel that, actually, Petrenko didn't take it too far, but there was one point where the pace seemed to lose its step. The recovery was quick, and otherwise I really feel that all the tempi were successful.

[Karl Henning]

So Brian, if I read correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), but the recording of Petrenko/RLPO 4th will be a 'live' recording?

If I read Brian aright, Ray, they are performing the piece live, but arranging distinct recording sessions.

[Brian]

If I read Brian aright, Ray, they are performing the piece live, but arranging distinct recording sessions.

This.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Brian, do you know if Ormandy/Philadelphia record most of the DSCH symphonies?

I'm not Brian but my recollection is Ormandy's recorded syms 1, 4, 5, 10, and the last three. (I have all except 1 and 5). I think all but 13 and 14 have made it to domestic CD, with 13 & 14 possibly on an overseas CD of some sort, IIRC.

[jlaurson]

But what I'm saying, Karl, is my experience with Gergiev is different than your own. Regardless if I was there or I wasn't there, I'm familiar with Gergiev's track record and he strikes out more than he hits home runs. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Like I said, he's fully capable of pulling of a great concert, but, on record, where, again, I judge his conducting since I don't live near a major metropolis, he's seriously inconsistent. Is it okay with you that I have my own doubts about this concert performance? Is it okay with you that just because you said the concert was good that I remain skeptical? I'll continue to remain on the fence about Gergiev's Shostakovich performances. For me, his current cycle has produced one dud after another.

Now, here's some rope for you...

You admit yourself that he does hit a few home runs. Everyone who has heard him more than three times in concert will confirm that; everyone who has five Gergiev recordings will also confirm that. So when Karl was there and says: It was great... why would you doubt that, only because you think that more often than not, he achieves less?

You are basically suggesting that it's more likely that Karl is wrong in having thought that what he heard was great, based on Gergiev's spotty record, than to assume that that was one of those high points.

I've heard the worst Parsifal (or Wagner, for that matter) with Gergiev live, but I've also heard the greatest Verdi Requiem with him; stupendous Boris G. and Lady Macbeth... and even a surprisingly good Mahler 5th and fine (but not always outstanding) DSCH... his Mahler recordings (8th and 5th excepted) I find somewhere between disappointing and tosh, but his DSCH PCs very good, his most recent Walkuere excellent... and so forth.

It is of course your prerogative to not believe any personal account. But why would you inherently question it, unless you had experience of Karl (or anyone else) being completely uncritical and loving everything he does?

[Brahmsian]

I'm not Brian but my recollection is Ormandy's recorded syms 1, 4, 5, 10, and the last three. (I have all except 1 and 5). I think all but 13 and 14 have made it to domestic CD, with a 13 & 14 possibly on an overseas CD of some sort, IIRC.

Excellent, thank you kindly, Brian stand-in! 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Excellent, thank you kindly, Brian stand-in! 

[kishnevi]

As a piece of general advice to Brian,  I would suggest saving Barshai and Gergiev for last when you hear the Fourth.  That's on the principle of saving the best for last.

In fact, Gergiev's Fourth was the first Fourth I heard, and it has remained my favorite over the years.
Another Fourth I liked a good deal (but not as good as Barshai) was Rattle/CBSO--another conductor who gives some highly variable results.  I don't know, off the top of my head,  if I have the Previn.  I've got both Haitinks--CSO and Concertgebouw--and I prefer the older Dutch version, but neither one is what I reach for when I want my dose of DSCH.

Yet on the other hand, in contrast to Karl's reaction to the live performance,  I find Gergiev's recording of the Seventh to be well down in the rankings.   And while I'm ore positive about his Mahler than Jens,  I have to admit that his M4 is the worst recording of that symphony I can remember hearing.

[jlaurson]

DSCH 4

Gergiev good, Barshai also good (and very, very different). Barshai is available outside the various boxes again, thanks to alto.

Best of all worlds, as I don't tire going on about: Jansons.

Bychkov, for war, brute power is something, too... but not as thrilling (naturally) as it was in concert.

[Karl Henning]

Yet on the other hand, in contrast to Karl's reaction to the live performance,  I find Gergiev's recording of the Seventh to be well down in the rankings.

I don't think I've heard it. (The only Gergiev/Shostakovich symphony recording I recall listening to is of the Fourth, which struck me as most peculiarly wilful.) A friend (now passed on, God rest his soul) who was also at the Mechanics Hall concert later bought the studio recording (with, IIRC, the combined forces of the Mariinka and the Concertgebouworkest), and he told me he found the recording signally lacking, even considering that one cannot expect a recording to match the power and impact of a great live performance.

[Fafner]

Ray, John, etc.: The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and Vasily Petrenko are rehearsing for a live performance of the Fourth Symphony, and will subsequently be recording it.

Of course, based on precedence, it will take another year or more to get released. 

[Karl Henning]

Believe me: as a composer, I am alive to how far ahead the time-scale stretches, in organizing musical events!

[kishnevi]

DSCH 4

Gergiev good, Barshai also good (and very, very different). Barshai is available outside the various boxes again, thanks to alto.

Best of all worlds, as I don't tire going on about: Jansons.

Bychkov, for war, brute power is something, too... but not as thrilling (naturally) as it was in concert.

Barshai's whole set is, IMO,  worth getting.  The only one out of that cycle I didn't like was 11, and I'm willing to assume, pending a second hearing, that was the result of a bad ear day.

Inspection revealed I do have the Previn, and also the Jansons.  Further recollection suggests Previn was well down in the pack,  and that while Jansons was excellent, he was not as excellent as Barshai and Gergiev.  Or if you will, a different kind of excellence.

ETA:



I see the Amazon page for Bychkov  includes a very positive review from....Santa Fe Listener.

[Karl Henning]

Well, clearly I need to listen to the Gergiev afresh, to explain my reservations . . . .

[kishnevi]

Well, clearly I need to listen to the Gergiev afresh, to explain my reservations . . . .

Actually,  I think your description was rather precise, although perhaps I would have used a different term.  Not sure what the term would be, however, so I'll use your term--this is a willful symphony;  DSCH was being willful in how he wrote it, and Gergiev's approach fits that, in my ears.

Or to put it another way: this might be a symphony in which it's okay for the conductor to be idiosyncratic and tempermental.

[jlaurson]

ETA:



I see the Amazon page for Bychkov  includes a very positive review from....Santa Fe Listener.

Something about broken clocks comes to mind.

Actually,  I think your description was rather precise, although perhaps I would have used a different term.  Not sure what the term would be, however, so I'll use your term--this is a willful symphony;  DSCH was being willful in how he wrote it, and Gergiev's approach fits that, in my ears.

Or to put it another way: this might be a symphony in which it's okay for the conductor to be idiosyncratic and tempermental.

Are we talking about the 4th? More and more I realize that it's Shostakovich's best. Just last night I was talking about the Fourth over after-dinner drinks... how it contains all the seeds of the other symphonies that would come, from five to fifteen... and indeed all the ingredients that make Shostakovich. The Mahler, the anguish, the silence (compare last movements with 15th), the clucking, the wistful lyricism, the driving rhythmic patterns, the lumbering into power via slow movements... It's a masterpiece... and it could have gotten any composer arrested in any country, it's such a powerful condemnation of abuse of power.

[Karl Henning]

Are we talking about the 4th? More and more I realize that it's Shostakovich's best[....]

That's what I'm talkin'!

Still, a sentimental fondness for the Tenth, which was the first which I heard live, in a shatteringly good performance by the Cleveland Orchestra led by Simon Rattle. Thus, roughly half the time I feel that the Fourth is the best . . . the other (rough) half: the Tenth . . . .

[Brahmsian]

Still haven't quite warmed up or been completely swept away with the 4th Symphony.  I don't dislike it, I just haven't developed that same 'wow' factor that I have with most of the other symphonies yet.

I'd say my absolute four favourites to this point in time are:  The 10th, 8th, 5th and 11th.