Author Topic: Schubert Lieder  (Read 40961 times)

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mn dave

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2008, 06:53:37 AM »
Thanks, guys. All duly noted...and wishlisted.

Offline Ciel_Rouge

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2009, 07:04:15 PM »
I recently learned here:

http://www.emiclassics.com/podcasts/podcast.xml

that a Bostridge/Pappano Schwanengesang is out. Has anyone listened to it yet?



I think that Schwanengesang and perhaps other Lieder are not really that demaning on the listener - they just seem very simple on paper but turn out to be very demaning both on the vocal performer (high precision and proper expressiveness) as well as on the pianist (the same). I found many versions of Schwanengesang simply annoying :) but the very same pieces played as excerpts in this podcast sounded VERY different and I had the impression they were bringing out the true beauty of the Lieder and perhaps Schubert's original intentions.

Since I find Pregardien's voice to sound rather similar to Bostridge (a very general comparison of course) I also wonder what are your opinions about the Pregardien/Staier:


Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2009, 10:36:42 AM »

. . . a Bostridge/Pappano Schwanengesang is out. Has anyone listened to it yet?




Got it in the mail yesterday and have listened to it three times since! What joy to hear those two great artist working together. No, I do not have the Wolf Lieder CD, but it's in my shopping cart. I already have the Pregardien/Staier performance and like it very much also, but somehow it sounds to me that Pappano is the more involved and understanding pianist. Of course he shines in the hit among all the other songs: 'Abschied' and with Bostridge's heavenly clear ending of all the 'Ades', I might wear out track 10.

I love Bostridge for being a wonderful Lieder singer, especially the German ones. His pronunciation is impeccable and his voice just schmalzig enough, when needed, as in 'Ständchen'. Yes, a great pair, Pappano and Bostridge, now I am looking foreward to the Wolf. Anybody know it?

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2009, 12:51:16 AM »
I think that Schwanengesang and perhaps other Lieder are not really that demaning on the listener - they just seem very simple on paper but turn out to be very demaning both on the vocal performer (high precision and proper expressiveness) as well as on the pianist (the same).

So true about 'demanding' on the performer(s), but well worth the effort!

In a local Schubert concert two weeks ago, a flute and piano duo played the redoubtable Variations on "Trockne Blumen", one of a few songs quoted in instrumental versions by Schubert himself. What a brilliant piece of music!

I thought that the primo part of the Andantino Varie would be a cinch to learn but found out that its simplicity was quite deceptive, so I was working almost until the last minute, revising fingerings, etc. My student sang the "Trout" while I was fumbling along with the accompaniment. (Someone said that singing teachers should have accompanists, even if you happen to know how to play. Yes, there is something to it as it is difficult to split one's concentration on the singer and the piano part at the same time.) And I also threw in the Impromptu Op. 90 #4, even had the nerve to play it by memory.

ZB
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline knight66

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2009, 03:17:49 AM »
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge. I have even got rid of discs of his. I find him mannered and hate the way he will sacrifice the line for verbal acuity. Other singers manage perfectly well to communicate the words without chopping up the legato. He also plays the toothpaste-tube trick a lot; squeezing the tone to 'express'' something or other. Altogether...I just can't stand him now. I have some early discs with him as part of the 'cast' and have kept them, but no recitals...they all went west.

As to some Schubert seeming undemanding for the listener: certainly, but that is managed by an art that hides art. They are far from easy to perform. When I was singing quite a bit, I tended to avoid the strophic songs. Not because I thought them boring; but because I thought they were more difficult to sing, yet keep them alive during each successive verse.

A lot looks easy on the page; but is in reality very difficult. Like Mozart or Bach, the simpler it looks, the more likely it will expose any shortcomings in technique.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline Ten thumbs

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2009, 04:35:16 AM »
It does strike me that, as the Schwanengesang were never intended as a cycle by the composer, they could with some effect be sung in a different order.
A day may be a destiny; for life
Lives in but little—but that little teems
With some one chance, the balance of all time:
A look—a word—and we are wholly changed.

Offline knight66

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2009, 04:52:56 AM »
You are right and it has been done. Brigitte Fassbaender recorded a version, Gramophone award winner, where she altered the order to produce a narrative. It goes to the edge of derangement and is abetted by Aribert Reiman. The final song becomes 'Der Atlas'. Both she and Bryn Terfel provide epic, groundshaking tone. I wonder what Bostridge-lite attempts here? In each version, 'Doppleganger' is the penultimate song.

I highly recommend Fassbaender; but it is a discomforting journey.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2009, 07:11:33 AM »
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge.
Mike

Thanks for the cold Sunday morning chuckle, Mike! So many GMG members, and so many different ears, how entertaining and educating. Next time I listen to this Bostridge performance I will make it a point to think of your evaluation of his way of Lieder singing.  :-*

Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2009, 09:15:49 AM »
It does strike me that, as the Schwanengesang were never intended as a cycle by the composer, they could with some effect be sung in a different order.

Here is the order of the songs on the Bostridge/Pappano disc:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Track Listings
1. Geheimnis D491 
2. An Schwager Kronos D369 
3. Widerschein D949 
4. Liebesbotschaft 
5. Kriegers Ahnung 
6. Frühlingssehnsucht 
7. Ständchen 
8. Aufenthalt 
9. In der Ferne 
10. Abschied 
11. Der Atlas 
12. Ihr Bild 
13. Das Fischermädchen 
14. Die Stadt 
15. Am Meer 
16. Der Doppelgänger 
17. Taubenpost D965 A 
18. Abschied D475 

The first three songs chosen by Bostridge are outside the usual Schwanengesang presentation. Geheimnis is written by the poet Johann Mayrhofer, Schubert's friend, who had committed suicide. The last song on the disc Abschied is also by Mayrhofer. Wiederschein is a poem by another friend of Schubert: Franz Xaver von Schlechta.

To void the unlucky number 13, the Viennese publisher Tobias Haslinger added the poem Taubenpost, poem by Seidl.

And I learned all that by reading the enclosed booklet, something I seldom do!  ;)

Offline Que

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2009, 01:48:32 PM »
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge. I have even got rid of discs of his. I find him mannered and hate the way he will sacrifice the line for verbal acuity. Other singers manage perfectly well to communicate the words without chopping up the legato. He also plays the toothpaste-tube trick a lot; squeezing the tone to 'express'' something or other. Altogether...I just can't stand him now. I have some early discs with him as part of the 'cast' and have kept them, but no recitals...they all went west.

Mike, absolutely, completely agree with that assesment.... :o 

Q

Offline Novi

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2009, 05:19:20 AM »
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge. I have even got rid of discs of his. I find him mannered and hate the way he will sacrifice the line for verbal acuity. Other singers manage perfectly well to communicate the words without chopping up the legato. He also plays the toothpaste-tube trick a lot; squeezing the tone to 'express'' something or other. Altogether...I just can't stand him now. I have some early discs with him as part of the 'cast' and have kept them, but no recitals...they all went west.


Mike

I know what you mean. He over-enunciates to the point where he's almost biting off the words, and he mugs a lot on stage as well, lolling all over the piano :-\. All up, doesn't work for me either.
Durch alle Töne tönet
Im bunten Erdentraum
Ein leiser Ton gezogen
Für den der heimlich lauschet.

Offline knight66

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2009, 12:11:24 PM »
This month's BBC Music Mag gives it a very mixed reception; one or two good performances, others compromised by the kind of defects I mentioned. Come on Lis; have another listen to it and tell us what is happening.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2009, 12:28:06 PM »
I have listened to it twice, Mike, really listened, and then at least five times as background while writing, and I have not changed my appraisal at all, in fact, I even learned to like it better. I like his way of singing German Lieder. As you all know, I am not a trained musician, I am listening with my heart, my feelings, my emotions. If Bostridge violates your professional conviction of how certain notes and phrases should be sung, I respect your opinion.

I think I said it before: Diversity of opinion makes an interesting forum!

 :-*

Offline knight66

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2009, 02:22:23 PM »
Lis, You should have been a lawyer.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2009, 02:48:37 PM »
and he mugs a lot on stage as well, lolling all over the piano .

The Schwanengesang I have is a CD, and since it is not a video, I don't care if Bostridge does the Sirshasan - that's Tandric for 'Headstand', in case you are unfamiliar with Hatha Yoga - on the piano or a Purzelbaum - that's German for somersault! - over the piano.  ;D

Offline Ten thumbs

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2009, 08:51:39 AM »
You are right and it has been done. Brigitte Fassbaender recorded a version, Gramophone award winner, where she altered the order to produce a narrative. It goes to the edge of derangement and is abetted by Aribert Reiman. The final song becomes 'Der Atlas'. Both she and Bryn Terfel provide epic, groundshaking tone. I wonder what Bostridge-lite attempts here? In each version, 'Doppleganger' is the penultimate song.

I highly recommend Fassbaender; but it is a discomforting journey.

Mike
On a similar subject, Schubert altered the order of the poems in Wintereise. It has been suggested that he did this through accidentally dropping his copy of the text but I don't believe this. I think the alteration intentional. There is therefore no justification for performing these songs in the poet's original order, which puts 'Muth' as the penultimate poem.
I used to sing at the piano and have a volume including Wintereise for low voice. On occasion I sang through this but, looking at it, I can see that it is not suitable for a complete performance because the key alterations are variable: some are down a major third but others are even in the original key. This means that the key relationships are wrong. What is more some of the songs are probably intentionally higher on the voice to increase tension. Are the recordings generally in the original keys?
A day may be a destiny; for life
Lives in but little—but that little teems
With some one chance, the balance of all time:
A look—a word—and we are wholly changed.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2009, 11:16:18 PM »
Thanks for the cold Sunday morning chuckle, Mike! So many GMG members, and so many different ears, how entertaining and educating. Next time I listen to this Bostridge performance I will make it a point to think of your evaluation of his way of Lieder singing.  :-*

Judging by some comments of German speakers on youtube, this Engländer manages to convince them and me as well: Bostridge in "Forelle"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk-TXzUlJhs

Erlkönig (nice piano playing, too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eS7XRXAGtw&NR=1

Im Frühling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MCK4KnbQ7w&feature=related

ZB
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Offline knight66

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2009, 01:15:39 PM »
His German is seemingly excellent; it is his singing I don't like. Perhaps he should take up acting...in German....in Germany.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2009, 06:48:01 PM »
   :P



    :-*

MN Dave

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Re: Schubert Lieder
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2010, 06:16:54 AM »
This topic should be hotter.  :-\

Anyhoo, downloaded this beast yesterday.