Schubert Lieder

[Scarpia]

And the good thing is that  since Hyperion introduced a direct download option on their website one can even pick & choose among the different discs without buying the big box. You can download whole discs or just single tracks you want to have. Just be sure to choose the "FLAC" lossless download, not the compressed MP3 as the price is the same. With FLAC you have the original, uncompressed audio data of the CD and can still also create MP3 or other lossy formats later on if you want to. I did a lot of cherry picking from Herrick's complete Bach organ works and the Schubert Lieder CDs during the past weeks 

Does Hyperion us a digital rights management system?

[sTisTi]

Does Hyperion us a digital rights management system?

No, not at all, you're getting standard lossless files (or MP3s if you choose so) without any restrictions. In fact, AFAIK neither the FLAC nor the MP3 format even supports any form of DRM system, so good for us users 

[Mandryka]

Petre Munteanu is a light tenor who is perhaps most well known for recordings he made with Herman Scherchen. I had heard that his lieder records were good - but up to now they had been a bit to expensive to take a punt. But a few weeks ago I noticed that you can download Dichterliebe, Schwanengesang and Schoene Muellerin very cheaply from amazon - so I took a chance.

What a glorious voice, naturally charismatic without a hint of artfulness .- His Mullerin especially is completely charming. He sings it straight. It's as if he's just talking to you, in music - the music entering the language. Not drama, no opera - just heart wrenching authentic music making. The polar opposite of Julius Patzak's histrionics.

I like Patzak myself - but I like this too. Good sound. Highly recommended.

[ccar]

Petre Munteanu is a light tenor who is perhaps most well known for recordings he made with Herman Scherchen. I had heard that his lieder records were good - but up to now they had been a bit to expensive to take a punt. But a few weeks ago I noticed that you can download Dichterliebe, Schwanengesang and Schoene Muellerin very cheaply from amazon - so I took a chance.

What a glorious voice, naturally charismatic without a hint of artfulness .- His Mullerin especially is completely charming. He sings it straight. It's as if he's just talking to you, in music - the music entering the language. Not drama, no opera - just heart wrenching authentic music making. The polar opposite of Julius Patzak's histrionics.

I like Patzak myself - but I like this too. Good sound. Highly recommended.

Absolutely.

Munteanu is one of the most impressive combinations of beautiful voice/color, musical intelligence and unaffected singing.
Interesting to Know he also conducted and composed, read literature at the University and had a doctoral degree on Hugo Wolf.

It is a great pity we now have only a few records to testify his enormous artistry. The Schubert  and Schumann cycles are an absolute must, as are his participations with Celibidache (Mozart Great Mass) and with Scherchen (Beethoven 9th, Mozart Requiem and particularly in one of the most moving St. Mathews Passion on record).  And those who want to get an idea of the versatility and unique talent of Petre Muntenau can also look for the Symposium 1332 recital - grab it while you can !

       

[zamyrabyrd]

Petre Munteanu is a light tenor who is perhaps most well known for recordings he made with Herman Scherchen. I had heard that his lieder records were good - but up to now they had been a bit to expensive to take a punt. But a few weeks ago I noticed that you can download Dichterliebe, Schwanengesang and Schoene Muellerin very cheaply from amazon - so I took a chance.

What a glorious voice, naturally charismatic without a hint of artfulness .- His Mullerin especially is completely charming. He sings it straight. It's as if he's just talking to you, in music - the music entering the language. Not drama, no opera - just heart wrenching authentic music making. The polar opposite of Julius Patzak's histrionics.

Prompted by this post, I thought I'd like to discover another tenor. After listening to quite a few youtube recordings, I don't hear a lot of legato either in German and Italian. The lack makes the delivery quite wooden for me. It's as though Munteanu stops the breath ever so slightly at the end of each syllable to ensure that no real connection to the next note happens even in the same word over a consonant. That bothers me much.

Fischer-Dieskau emphasized the importance of legato and "follow-through" in the series of masterclasses in German Lied he made in 1992. 

ZB

[ccar]

Prompted by this post, I thought I'd like to discover another tenor. After listening to quite a few youtube recordings, I don't hear a lot of legato either in German and Italian. The lack makes the delivery quite wooden for me. It's as though Munteanu stops the breath ever so slightly at the end of each syllable to ensure that no real connection to the next note happens even in the same word over a consonant. That bothers me much.

Fischer-Dieskau emphasized the importance of legato and "follow-through" in the series of masterclasses in German Lied he made in 1992. 

ZB

Why may we prefer some musicians/interpreters to others? 

Many of the great artists attracted generations. But even in the big league interpreters, there are always those we are not fond of, that didn't connect with our individual sensibility. We may try to use many reasons to explain this but not wanting to be either too technical or psychoanalytical, in the end it is always a very personal choice. Fortunately, we are all different, and we have many talented artists to choose from.   

In a different post I also confessed my personal difficulty in being "touched" by the singing of the great Fischer-Dieskau (particularly in the latter half of his career). I will not repeat previous comments but for me the more "natural" and "spontaneous" singing of Munteanu is a very contrasting example to what I personally dislike in many more technically "overworked-overemphatic" singers, like DFD or, to give some other completely different superstar examples, Cecilia Bartoli or Juan Diego Flórez.

I am never able to comment on the technique details of the singing. All my comments relate to personal appreciation and feeling.  And I also respect your personal sensibility. But on your  more technical comments, particularly regarding Munteanu's legato, I tried to look for other perspectives on the subject. Robert Levine (author of a Known Maria Callas'  biography) did look at one of the Munteanu's recitals. My feeling is very much in tune with his own "technical" characterization of this wonderful underrated artist. 
         
" Forget vocal fireworks, long-held high notes, tenorial over-emoting, and blazes of sound: listening to Romanian tenor Petre Munteanu is an entirely different experience. ... "      http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149913

[zamyrabyrd]

Hi Ccar,

Singers like any other insturmental performers need top technique. Otherwise they can't pretend they are expressing the music and not themselves. The ability to sing legato is an indispensible."Feeling" is not enough.

This Don Pasquale is simply awful, (made worse by the chorus).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Wf0INVtN4&feature=related

With all due respect, Petre Munteanu had nice high notes, that is, the raw material of a good tenor but not the sustaining power of an accomplished artist.  It's no surprise that he was not competing with the best during his singing career and somewhat forgotten afterwards.

ZB

[Mandryka]

Singers like any other insturmental performers need top technique. Otherwise they can't pretend they are expressing the music and not themselves. The ability to sing legato is an indispensible."Feeling" is not enough.


ZB

The criticism seems pretty academic and dry -- if the feeling is strong, if he makes it sound important, then why should anyone bother about anything else?

Prompted by this post, I thought I'd like to discover another tenor. After listening to quite a few youtube recordings, I don't hear a lot of legato either in German and Italian. The lack makes the delivery quite wooden for me. It's as though Munteanu stops the breath ever so slightly at the end of each syllable to ensure that no real connection to the next note happens even in the same word over a consonant. That bothers me much.

Fischer-Dieskau emphasized the importance of legato and "follow-through" in the series of masterclasses in German Lied he made in 1992. 

ZB

What were you listening to on youtube? In the Milller Boy, he's anything but wooden.

[zamyrabyrd]

What were you listening to on youtube? In the Milller Boy, he's anything but wooden.

I just listened to a handful of "Am leuchtenden Sommermorgen" (Dichterliebe, including Munteanu, Schiotz/Moore, Panzera, Huesch and Fischer-Dieskau. FD is fluid -- you're less aware of consonants and your more aware of phrase. With Munteanu you are are certainly aware where a word begins end. But I don't think that's a weakness. Do you?

Compare this Dichterliebe (Munteanu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ND3WnUBSDU&feature=related

with this (Souzay):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH8JiaN9w6g&feature=related

In the latter you can actually hear whole words and not syllables. And in the words of my voice teacher (back then), M.R., what the former is doing impacts the voice in the way constantly switching a light on and off does. This practice highly impedes phrase making even to the extent of a perceptible uneven vibrato.

ZB

[ccar]

Hi Ccar,

Singers like any other insturmental performers need top technique. Otherwise they can't pretend they are expressing the music and not themselves. The ability to sing legato is an indispensible."Feeling" is not enough.

With all due respect, Petre Munteanu had nice high notes, that is, the raw material of a good tenor but not the sustaining power of an accomplished artist.  It's no surprise that he was not competing with the best during his singing career and somewhat forgotten afterwards.

ZB

Thanks ZB you for your sincere and sharp comments.

Some singers I Know and some of my musical friends, particularly those who very much like opera and sometimes are less fond of other vocal or instrumental music, have what I usually call a more "physical" relation with the "voice". Mostly they look for the intonation, the range, the tessitura, the steadiness of the lower or top notes, the voice projection, the vibrato, the legato, the articulation, .... 

On the contrary, I always tend to look at singers more as musical "actors" than as musical instruments – I am much more sensible to the humane character and intensity the singer can convey, to the color or timbre than to power, to the meaning and poetry than to emphasis and detail, to a "natural" or intuitive musical phrasing than to a wide range or perfect intonation.

I understand that for you and most of my "voice lover" friends Munteanu is only a light tenor, with limited power and range and unsteady emission or articulation. Compared to Fisher-Dieskau, or even Souzay, his "direct" unaffected style may seem unexpressive, monotonous and uninvolved. But perhaps there may be something in this more "natural" approach to singing that is touching the less technical emotions. 

All this was already expressed by others in this forum. And looking for other comments on Petre Munteanu I also found David Gable's provocative, but to me very lucid, appreciation on a 2007 rmcr thread ("Schubert, Schumann, and Petre Munteanu"). I hope he won't mind a small quoting excerpt: 

Easier to write about his career ... than to describe his virtues as a musician. Suffice it to say that Munteanu was a        far more interesting singer, even, than, say, Christa Ludwig or Hermann Prey, whom I nevertheless admire, discovering more in these songs than they ever dreamed of. And he did so without ever resorting to the "knowing" italicizing and editorializing of a Fischer-Dieskau or especially a Schwarzkopf, entirely avoiding his fussy diction and her cloying preciousness.

Munteanu was a singer not unlike Victoria de los Angeles: completely unaffected. Both sang with an apparent simplicity and modesty, with a directness and seeming naturalness, but their simplicity, directness, and naturalness were the simplicity, directness, and naturalness of great musical intelligences, and their "artless" performances were actually the product of the most consummate artistry.

David Gable

PS the You tube post of Munteanu Dichterliebe has a completely distorted sound - can't give you a fair idea of his "voice" when compared with the Preiser CD; but I clearly understand this will not radically change your view, or "feeling"  .       

[Tsaraslondon]

On the Munteanu issue, I side more with ZB. The voice itself is attractive, but the lack of a real legato line bothers me quite a lot. I see Gable compares him to Victoria De Los Angeles, whose art did always seem simple and unaffected, but she also sang with a perfect legato line.

Fritz Wunderlich had a similar unaffected delivery and a beautiful voice, but just listen to him here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs6xTeCIxdU. I think that demonstrates what ZB is talking about. 

[zamyrabyrd]

Fritz Wunderlich had a similar unaffected delivery and a beautiful voice, but just listen to him here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs6xTeCIxdU.

The above Dichterliebe is somewhat operatic but nice.

I can listen to Wunderlich all day though.  Here are some Schubert songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyCVx1IpE6w&feature=related

His "unaffectedness" is high art, IMO, the result of hard work and study.

ZB

[Tsaraslondon]

I can listen to Wunderlich all day though. 

His "unaffectedness" is high art, IMO, the result of hard work and study.

ZB

Not to mention the sheer beauty of his voice. I too could listen to him all day.

[kishnevi]

Not to mention the sheer beauty of his voice. I too could listen to him all day.

Just finished to his recording of Das Lied von der Erde.  He actually does sound better than most, if not all, of the other tenors I've heard in this work, making the singing effortless instead of stentorian in the way some other do it. 

My only other recording of him is the Alcina he did as a radio broadcast with Joan Sutherland,  having learned the role on only a few days notice (the tenor originally signed for the lead somehow misunderstood and learned the wrong role).  It was released about a year and a half ago by DG as a commercial recording; if you search Youtube, you can find at least one upload of an aria from that performance.

[Mandryka]

I ljust istened to a handful of recordings of Der Doppelgaenger - Munteanu, Schreier, Kipnis, Lehmann, Panzéra, Rehkemper. All good.

I was looking for someone who told the emotional story, the emotional development - calmness, anxiety, curiosity, horror. And finally - well it's hard to say -- a mixture of pity and confusion perhaps, with a bit of terror thrown in.

The two I wouldn't be without now are Schreier and Kipnis. Both were very "internal" - you feel as though you're there with them, revisiting the place associated  with such complex emotions and memories and regrets, acquiring that unbearable self awareness. Schreier is particularly impressive in the opening (very hushed and intense in "Still ist die Nacht", and very restrained and moving in "So manche Nacht, in alter Zeit" ) Kipnis was quite simply terrifying for much of the second and third stanzas, particularly impressive at the end. They were rather similar in some ways, even though obviously Kipnis has a heavier, more colossal voice. Similar interpretively maybe.

And by the way, Schreier had the most stunning acompaniment (Schiff.)

Lehmann was very good, but I felt she was telling the story rather than living the events (nonsense probably - but that's how I heard it.) The way she sings "Still ist die Nacht, es ruhen die Gassen" - effective, but to my ears very much like a narrator telling a scary story. And in the central passages, when she sees herself - maybe this is sexist but somehow it's all rather histrionic I think.

Panzéra is meltingly pitiful at the end . And he is remarkably controlled at the moment of horror - the impact is through colour rather than volume. But it's in French - and you lose a lot. And I'm so enthusiastic about the orchestral version anyway.

Munteanu probably had the most beautiful voice of all. He's restrained and effectively trance like in the opening stanza. A bit more dramatic nuance may be approriate in a song like this.

Rehkemper was, I thought, a bit over characterised. A bit hammy.

Here's the poem in English in case you need reminding:

The night is quiet, the streets are calm,
In this house my beloved once lived:
She has long since left the town,
But the house still stands, here in the same place.

A man stands there also and looks to the sky,
And wrings his hands overwhelmed by pain:
Upon seeing his face, I am terrified--
The moon shows me my own form!

O you Doppelgänger! you pale comrade!
Why do you ape the pain of my love
Which tormented me upon this spot
So many a night, so long ago?

[mjwal]

There aren't too many historical recordings of this, are there, to judge by Schubert Lieder On Record - Panzéra's "Le Sosie", of course, a bit odd in French with the orchestra - I listened to Hotter/Raucheisen (1950 - Acanta LP), rather impressive though more morose and bitter (he's good at that) than terrified. Schlusnus almost breezes though it, tonelessly but also rather flatly at the beginning, then waiting for the climaxes to show off his lovely high notes - a disappointment. So Kipnis, yes, very powerful - I don't know Rehkemper or Munteanu. Is the Schreier/Schiff recording the Wigmore Hall recording? If so, I must get that. Do you know Prégardien/Staier? He almost talks or shouts at times, but I find he covers quite a lot of ground expressively; it's a very uncomfortable performance, which might be just about right for this poem, though as singing it is what the Germans call "grenzwertig", borderline. I would very much like to hear Fassbaender's version, suppose I have to cough up €15 or so to get it as DG seems unwilling to reissue her lieder recordings for them in a cheap box.

[ccar]

I was looking for someone who told the emotional story, the emotional development - calmness, anxiety, curiosity, horror. And finally - well it's hard to say -- a mixture of pity and confusion perhaps, with a bit of terror thrown in.

The two I wouldn't be without now are Schreier and Kipnis. Both were very "internal" - you feel as though you're there with them, revisiting the place associated  with such complex emotions and memories and regrets, acquiring that unbearable self awareness.

Mandryka, thank you for bringing up to the Forum this wonderful lied and your listening comments.

I agree with most of your impressions. And I share your need of looking for the more "internal" readings, particularly in a song like this one. In fact, it seems many great singers recorded Der Doppelganger, even without Schwanengesang, perhaps as a challenge to reveal their vocal and dramatic capabilities. And many did it wonderfully. But I feel only a few have that "internal" approach, trying to reveal its more intimate poetic character – for me, a dreamy and very introspective sorrow.

Listening to the recordings, I followed carefully the words and the music and tried to look at my own way of feeling the poem and the song:         
 
Schubert's Sehr langsam indication and those repeated hypnotic four chords at the beginning set the ambiance for the all song. I believe the first stanza should not only be given slowly but also with a soft and restrained expression. This is essential to create the dream-like character of the poem and to prepare for the contrast with the coming Doppelganger vision. This dramatic effect is anticipated by the changing character of the music (after auf demselben Platz) and by the dynamic indications – a diminuendo followed by a gradual crescendo before the vision and the first climax, marked fff  (Hände vor Schmerzensgewalt).
 
The dream ends and the hidden memory is revealed in dramatic but introspective lines. And this is beautifully told by the music. Schubert's genius signals the emotional change with a decrescendo and an isolated but expressive p chord (after Schmerzensgewalt). This chord anticipates the shudder (Mir graust es) and in crescendo, we see the face of the spectrum, the moonlight (suggested by beautiful soft chords) and the second dramatic climax - the recognition of the subconscious self (underlined by ff-fff). 

In the last stanza we feel the suffering for the lost love. But the renewed memory is questioned in a curious dialog between the conscious and the subconscious. Schubert's music is again very expressive in this last dramatic climax (Was äffst du nach mein Liebesleid, Das mich geuält auf dieser Stelle). But in the end the song reveals a more peaceful acceptance, suggested by the p-pp-ppp indications, the musical sweetness of the last words (in alter Zeit?) and the vanishing single-chord postlude.

Like you Mandryka, I also appreciate Kipnis, Schreier and Lehmann. And I agree that in spite of the french and orchestral version Panzera is also very interesting. I also share the pleasure of listening to Munteanu – his beautiful timbre and the way he sings, expressively but without "effects", puts him in a very unique and scarce league.

But others I need to mention are Gerard Souzay and Gerhard Husch.

Husch recorded Der Doppelganger twice. In his earlier version (1939) Husch gives what for me is one of the most wonderful interpretations of this lied, with an amazing freshness and intelligence. And latter (1952) he is still very good. Obviously his voice is no longer the same but the way he uses it gives the vision of a more mature and darker reading. A fascinating example of how a great artist is able to use his own limitations to achieve a different interpretative character.         

Souzay also recorded Der Doppelganger several times. The first (1950) is a strong characterization, when his voice had its special colour and technical brilliancy in full. But in spite of that, or perhaps because, I also like his second (1962) reading, where he may be less secure but is more vocally restrained and thoughtful. For me this is also one the most impressive and profound readings of this dramatic, but very intimate song. I can't reccomend the third recording (1972) because the limits of his instrument were already too difficult to surpass.     

 

[Mandryka]

Is the Schreier/Schiff recording the Wigmore Hall recording? If so, I must get that.

No the studio one. I haven't heard the live one.

Do you know Prégardien/Staier? He almost talks or shouts at times, but I find he covers quite a lot of ground expressively; it's a very uncomfortable performance, which might be just about right for this poem, though as singing it is what the Germans call "grenzwertig", borderline.

No -- but I'm curious

I would very much like to hear Fassbaender's version, suppose I have to cough up €15 or so to get it as DG seems unwilling to reissue her lieder recordings for them in a cheap box.

I've ordered that one myself. I like her -- I have been enjoying her EMI Wolf a lot recently.

[Mandryka]

Schubert's Sehr langsam indication . . .  the vanishing single-chord postlude.

That's very stimulating. Thanks. I'm not a German scholar and I have never really studied music. So that sort of post is very interesting to me. Much appreciated.

Husch recorded Der Doppelganger twice. In his earlier version (1939) Husch gives what for me is one of the most wonderful interpretations of this lied,

I would like to hear that. Is that earlier version the one in the CD pictured in your post?

I have mixed feelings about Husch. In Winterreise I generally chose more inward readings -- Hotter or even Schreier/Richter. But in Dichterliebe I think he's marvelous.

Anyway, I'll get his Schwanengesang songs, for sure.

Souzay also recorded Der Doppelganger twice. . . .

Souzay is a singer I need to discover more, for sure. Where are these recordings -- ie which CD contains the early, which the late?

By the way, I will go through all Schwanengesang -- I want to make a sort of "best of" CD. Next up is Staendchen! So far in my listening Schlusnus is particularly impressive in that.

[ccar]

That's very stimulating. Thanks. I'm not a German scholar and I have never really studied music. So that sort of post is very interesting to me. Much appreciated.

Thanks Mandryka. I am also not a scholar, nor a musicien. And I was not shure if my last post did make any sense. But I believe that when we express our preferences for a musical interpretation it can be more informative, and fair, to musicians, to others and to ourselves, if we also give some reflection on our own way of listening to the piece.       

Trying to listen "carefully" may gives us more and better enjoyment. But is also a form of respect. To the music and to the musicians we sometime comment or criticize. Because any singer, particularly the great ones, they all have years of continuous study and preparation - developing their voice, their technique and working thoroughly on their repertoire. More than anyone, they do know every detail of the words, the musical nuances and interpretative possibilities.

But Music is not made only for musicians, composers or professional critics. Even without the "hard musical Knowledge", we may still listen carefully, have pleasure, discover many wonderful details and have the honesty to like or dislike. And sometimes the more musically learned listeners are not the more musically sensitive.   

This is to say I believe we all can listen and enjoy in many different ways. But when the music is deeply connected with a poem, most of us will gain if we take some time to read the poem before we listen. This is our first "interpretation" of the words. If we then look at the actual song we see how the music can give us another reading – helped by the composer.  And when we try to compare various singers and interpretations, we discover how the "same" poem and music can create so many different "understandings".  Fortunately, there is never the "only" way or the "right" way.

I would like to hear that. Is that earlier version the one in the CD pictured in your post?

Souzay is a singer I need to discover more, for sure. Where are these recordings -- ie which CD contains the early, which the late?

Here are some links for the Husch and Souzay's Der Doppelganger.

http://www.amazon.com/Lebendige-Vergangenheit-Franz-Vienna-Schubert/dp/B0000023M3/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920671&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Husch-Berger-Japan-Gerhard/dp/B000B63EQA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920787&sr=1-7
http://www.amazon.co.uk/G%C3%A9rard-Souzay-Recital-Gerard/dp/B00005RKQU/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920843&sr=1-10
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-sch%C3%B6ne-M%C3%BCllerin-Winterreise-Schwanengesang/dp/B00002475X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920843&sr=1-1

By the way, I will go through all Schwanengesang -- I want to make a sort of "best of" CD. Next up is Staendchen! So far in my listening Schlusnus is particularly impressive in that.

I look forward to your impressions on Staendchen. Any Schubert lied is a small world. And I also need to look at each song by itself to compare its possible readings or interpretations. This can be very stimulating but is hard enough. For me it is very difficult to grasp an entire "cycle". And it is even more difficult to get the "best of". I have my preferences, but I always need the variety, if possible among "the best".