Comparing Composers

[Bulldog]

Are you trying to tell me what you love is NOT great to you, what you do not love is SOMEHOW worthy?  That makes no sense whatsoever to me! 

You're such a rigid thinker.

The best example I can offer as to how we differ would be my views on Vivaldi's music.  I don't enjoy it much, so I rarely listen to it.  Is it worthy music?  I would have to say yes, since so many folks do love it.  I simply conclude that Vivaldi and I are not a good match - we don't connect. 

Your views on Mozart's music are quite different.  You don't enjoy it so you reach the conclusion that it isn't worthy. Everything about you screams "ME ONLY".

[Franco]

Are you trying to tell me what you love is NOT great to you, what you do not love is SOMEHOW worthy?  That makes no sense whatsoever to me! 

My logical statement applies to the majority of human race, people like what they like and do not like what they do not like.  The only exception would he masochists.

No, your views are simply yours.  It is a sure sign of self-absorption when anyone sets themself up as the spokesperson for humanity.  There are many people who do not think like you, who are aware of the music they love but do not leap to the equation "I love it = greatness; I do not like it = unworthy" - in fact I could not describe a way of thinking I find less like mine than the one you claim as your own. 

Why can't you be satisfied with saying "I love composer X"  and not add anything about whether you think he is great or not?  I can imagine that GMG folks may be interested in the composers whose music you like, but are immediately turned off when you go on to denigrate other composers you don't like as worthless, etc.,  because they are in all likelihood loved by someone, or most, on this forum and just as you might find it bothersome to constantly be told that a composer you love is worthless, please don't tell us that about our own favorites. 

And if you were to reply that you don't care if someone denigrates a composer you love - just accept that it is generally considered impolite to insult someone's taste over and over.

[Teresa]

You're such a rigid thinker.

The best example I can offer as to how we differ would be my views on Vivaldi's music.  I don't enjoy it much, so I rarely listen to it.  Is it worthy music?  I would have to say yes, since so many folks do love it.  I simply conclude that Vivaldi and I are not a good match - we don't connect. 

Your views on Mozart's music are quite different.  You don't enjoy it so you reach the conclusion that it isn't worthy. Everything about you screams "ME ONLY".

You are LETTING other peoples likes and dislikes influence your judgement of Vivaldi or any other composer you do not like.  STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, do not be taken in by other peoples opinions.  If you do not like something, you do not like it and it can NEVER be great to you no matter how hard you try.

Music is ME ONLY to every single person living on Planet Earth, whither they are honest with themselves or not.  Let other people decide what is GREAT for them.

My views on Mozart are shared by many composers and musicians, but they are personal opinions all.  Every opinion about classical music greatness, worthness, etc. is all personal opinion, every single word uttered by anyone.  However many love Mozart and for his fans he is great but not for us.  The Anti-Mozart League

[Bulldog]

Here's an example of banality:

http://www.youtube.com/v/cC4kJiTHTtQ

I've enjoyed that music for many years.  Me thinks that the banality comes entirely from you.

[Franco]

You are LETTING other peoples likes and dislikes influence your judgement of Vivaldi or any other composer you do not like.  STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, do not be taken in my other peoples opinions.  If you do not something, you do not like it and it can NEVER be great to you no matter how hard you try.

Music is ME ONLY to every single person living on Planet Earth, whither they are honest with themselves or not.  Let other people decide what is GREAT for them.

My views on Mozart are shared by many composers and musicians, but they are personal opinions all.  Ever opinion about classical music greatness, worthness, etc. is all personal opinion, every single word uttered by anyone.  However many love Mozart and for his fans he is great but not for us.  http://audioiconoclast.blogspot.com/2010/06/anti-mozart-league.html

Zero comments to your blog and all of 22 members on the Facebook anti-Mozart group.

You have a lot of work to do before you can speak for the entire human race.

[bhodges]

I've enjoyed that music [Poulenc Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra] for many years. 

Totally agree.  Actually I had never heard this performance and listened to all three movements on YouTube.  It's quite a treasure (early 1960s?), with Francis Poulenc himself and Jacques Février on pianos, and the Orchestra National de la RTF conducted by Georges Prêtre.  Saucy, delicious stuff--hardly banal--and I bet the audience went nuts at the end.

--Bruce

[Teresa]

No, your views are simply yours.  It is a sure sign of self-absorption when anyone sets themself up as the spokesperson for humanity.  There are many people who do not think like you, who are aware of the music they love but do not leap to the equation "I love it = greatness; I do not like it = unworthy" - in fact I could not describe a way of thinking I find less like mine than the one you claim as your own. 

Why can't you be satisfied with saying "I love composer X"  and not add anything about whether you think he is great or not?  I can imagine that GMG folks may be interested in the composers whose music you like, but are immediately turned off when you go on to denigrate other composers you don't like as worthless, etc.,  because they are in all likelihood loved by someone, or most, on this forum and just as you might find it bothersome to constantly be told that a composer you love is worthless, please don't tell us that about our own favorites. 

And if you were to reply that you don't care if someone denigrates a composer you love - just accept that it is generally considered impolite to insult someone's taste over and over.

Yes my views are my own, as are everyone else's views.  Greatness, enjoyment, love are all personal opinions, DO NOT LET ANYONE TRY TO CONVINCE YOU OTHERWISE.  If they do run far, far away as they are bullying you. 

My statement was "what you love is great to you, what you do not love is not worthy to you", where is that in error?   And as I said it applies to the ENTIRE human race unless you are a masochist.

BTW greatness is the finest compliment that one can endow on a beloved composer or composition.

You are wrong I have not denigrated a single composer in this thread, only gave examples of why composers born after 1800 are worthy of consideration.  However it is up to the listener to decide what they themselves like. 

In all fairness I DO NOT understand how you can disagree with "people like what they like and do not like what they do not like".  Are you just disagreeable today?

[Bulldog]

You are LETTING other peoples likes and dislikes influence your judgement of Vivaldi or any other composer you do not like.  STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, do not be taken in my other peoples opinions.  If you do not something, you do not like it and it can NEVER be great to you no matter how hard you try.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.  I've already stated that I don't like Vivaldi's music and rarely listen to it.  So obviously, my personal world of music is not influenced by what others say or think about his works.  What I refuse to do is routinely dump on composers I don't like.  You need to stop taking your personal preferences and objectify them; frankly, you aren't up to the task (very few are).

[Teresa]

Zero comments to your blog and all of 22 members on the Facebook anti-Mozart group.

You have a lot of work to do before you can speak for the entire human race.

What does Mozart have to do the belief that people like what they like?  Some people love Mozart, some people like Mozart and some people hate Mozart.  I can live with all of that.  What I cannot live with is people who try to push their likes on others.

Other than people who like to torture themselves I do not know of anyone who loves to listen to music they do not like.  Thus my logical statement applies to the majority of human race, people like what they like and do not like what they do not like.  In addition what they love is great to them, what they do not love is not worthy to them, the only exception would he masochists.  And that IS NOT speaking for the entire human race, it is just pure simple logic.

[Franco]

Yes my views are my own, as are everyone else's views.  Greatness, enjoyment, love are all personal opinions, DO NOT LET ANYONE TRY TO CONVINCE YOU OTHERWISE.  If they do run far, far away as they are bullying you. 

Actually, "greatness" is not a personal opinion.

My statement was "what you love is great to you, what you do not love is not worthy to you", where is that in error?   And as I said it applies to the ENTIRE human race unless you unless you are a masochist.

The error is confusing your personal opinion with an objective critical judgment of greatness.  I don't use the language you wish to attirbute to the entire human race to describe the music I love, I simply say I like it and do not include any mention of greatness.

You are wrong I have not denigrated a single composer in this thread, only gave examples of why composers born after 1800 are worthy of consideration.  However it is up to the listener to decide what they themselves like. 

You have denigrated Mozart but referring to him as a worthless composer.  Now maybe he is worthless to you, but your opinion means nothing to the consensus critical judgment that Mozart is one of the greatest composer to have lived.  At some point, it may dawn on you that the world is not your oyster.

In all fairness I DO NOT understand how you can disagree with "people like what they like and do not like what they do not like".  Are you just disagreeable today?

I don't disagree with that sentence.  I disagree with your confusing your opinion about a composer with that composer's intrinsic worth - which is not up to you to decide, that judgment is made by history.

[Teresa]

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.  I've already stated that I don't like Vivaldi's music and rarely listen to it.  So obviously, my personal world of music is not influenced by what others say or think about his works.  What I refuse to do is routinely dump on composers I don't like.  You need to stop taking your personal preferences and objectify them; frankly, you aren't up to the task (very few are).

I know very well what I am taking about!  If you are NOT letting others influence your opinion, then you agree that people listen to what they like and do not listen to what they do not like.  Also greatness, musical enjoyment, etc. are all personal opinions.

You are just shy about letting your feelings about composers known.

[Bulldog]

What does Mozart have to do the belief that people like what they like?  Some people love Mozart, some people like Mozart and some people hate Mozart.  I can live with all of that.  What I cannot live with is people who try to push their likes on others.

Nobody is trying to push their likes on you.  It's when you take a subjective preference and try to objectify it that some fellow posters react negatively to your illogical and inconsiderate meanderings. 

[Bulldog]

I know very well what I am taking about!  If you are NOT letting others influence your opinion, then you agree that people listen to what they like and do not listen to what they do not like.  Also greatness, musical enjoyment, etc. are all personal opinions.

You are just shy about letting your feelings about composers known.

Let me be upfront about one thing - I think you're an idiot.

[Teresa]

Actually, "greatness" is not a personal opinion.

ACTUALLY GREATNESS is highly personal and differs with every listener!

You have denigrated Mozart but referring to him as a worthless composer.  Now maybe he is worthless to you, but your opinion means nothing to the consensus critical judgment that Mozart is one of the greatest composer to have lived.  At some point, it may dawn on you that the world is not your oyster.

He is worthless to me and others who do not enjoy his music, why you have such a hard time with this I will never understand?  No composer is the greatest composer who ever lived to everyone as greatest is HIGHLY PERSONAL, see above!

I don't disagree with that sentence.  I disagree with your confusing your opinion about a composer with that composer's intrinsic worth - which is not up to you to decide, that judgment is made by history.

A composer only has worth if he is enjoyed by the listener.  History is good for group consensus by not for individual listeners.  Individual listeners must make their own decisions.  It's called FREEDOM!!!

[Teresa]

Nobody is trying to push their likes on you.  It's when you take a subjective preference and try to objectify it that some fellow posters react negatively to your illogical and inconsiderate meanderings.

I have NEVER done what you are saying, my personal opinions have alway been my personal opinions.  I have indeed defended everyone to be able to express their personal opinions even when they disagree with mine.  I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM!

Also I try to be as logical as possible, and make corrections when I am in error.  So point me to any illogical statement I have made and I will revisit it.

[Teresa]

Let me be upfront about one thing - I think you're an idiot.

Is English your second language or are you just mean and nasty?  I think you have a very hard time understanding simple logic, but I would never call you names.  I am willing to help you understand, but you are wearing my patience thin.

[Bulldog]

Also I try to be as logical as possible, and make corrections when I am in error.  So point me to any illogical statement I have made and I will revisit it.

Let's start with your reply #515 on the Mozart thread.

[Bulldog]

Is English your second language or are you just mean and nasty?  I think you have a very hard time understanding simple logic, but I would never call you names.  I am willing to help you understand, but you are wearing my patience thin.

I think it's great that your patience is wearing thin.  What are you going to do about it?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Is English your second language or are you just mean and nasty?  I think you have a very hard time understanding simple logic, but I would never call you names.  I am willing to help you understand, but you are wearing my patience thin.

He's just refusing to be shy about letting his feelings about you known.

[Saul]

I've enjoyed that music for many years.  Me thinks that the banality comes entirely from you.

Its entirely possible to enjoy banality, case in point Picasso, but that doesn't make it great.