Comparing Composers

[MN Dave]

If you really want to put Saul in his place, discuss something else on this board!!!!

Or don't reply. Or put him on "ignore" like me. 

[karlhenning]

No time for drivel!

[Saul]

No time for drivel!

Oh yea!! not time for Webern!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Another thought, does anyone remember the phrase "the drivel he calls his music." 

How can I forget? I wrote that phrase! 

I wonder what has become of Robert Antacki, the proto-Mozart of a precursor to this board.  Are his works being performed by the Vienna Philharmonic, and if not why?

The Internet reveals all:

http://www.nextcat.com/robantecki
http://www.facebook.com/robantecki
http://www.sweetpaul.com/the-backstrokes-music-rob-antecki/
http://www.aquinas.edu/alumni/archives.html

[Teresa]

...are as absurd as Teresa's criticisms of Mozart...

I take issue with this statement and I am highly offended by your accusation that my personal opinions are absurd.

Just because someone dislikes music you like and considers someone a bad composer based on both hearing and studying their music is no reason to call that someone's opinions absurd.

Even though I have a very hard trying to understand how anyone can listen to Mozart's music and actually enjoy it, it is not my place to tell others what to like and what not to like.   These are personal choices, just as the opinion of what music is bad, poor, good and great are personal choices, which I honor.

I would never attack anyone for enjoying Mozart, or for their personal ranking of his skills.  I feel it is "out of bounds" to do so and it would violate their personal freedom.  I expect the same respect I extend to others.  Everyone is free to love and hate whatever music the wish, free to rank composers however they wish. 

This forcing of artificial and contrived value system of ranking composers for others is anti-freedom and I have been fighting the musical establishment of these dictatorial ideas for four decades.   See Classical Music for music lovers who don't think they like Classical Music

Perhaps you should have said "I disagree with Teresa's criticisms of Mozart and love his music."   

[Scarpia]

I take issue with this statement and I am highly offended by your accusation that my personal opinions are absurd.

You claimed that you could determine that Mozart was a terrible composer based on your knowledge of music theory.  Then it was revealed that you thought an extremely common II-V-I progression was shocking to audiences, and that Rachmaninoff composed music without using dissonance.   Anyone with the slightest familiarity with music theory and history would recognize these statements as absurd.  For you to claim your criticism of Mozart is based on expert opinion is like someone who doesn't understand high school physics to claim to have found a flaw in Einstein's theory of general relativity.  (It happens, see this wonderful story on This American Life  http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/293/A-Little-Bit-of-Knowledge). 

Really, why can't you just say you don't like Mozart and leave it at that?  When you try to go farther you just make a ridiculous spectacle of yourself.

[Mirror Image]

Or don't reply. Or put him on "ignore" like me. 

Which is precisely what I have done. 

[karlhenning]

I take issue with this statement and I am highly offended by your accusation that my personal opinions are absurd.

Not that you are any more apt to read this at all better . . . no one is calling your dislike of Mozart absurd.

Your "criticisms" of Mozart, though . . . crackers.

[Teresa]

You claimed that you could determine that Mozart was a terrible composer based on your knowledge of music theory.  Then it was revealed that you thought an extremely common II-V-I progression was shocking to audiences, and that Rachmaninoff composed music without using dissonance.   Anyone with the slightest familiarity with music theory and history would recognize these statements as absurd.  For you to claim your criticism of Mozart is based on expert opinion is like someone who doesn't understand high school physics to claim to have found a flaw in Einstein's theory of general relativity.  (It happens, see this wonderful story on This American Life  http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/293/A-Little-Bit-of-Knowledge). 

Really, why can't you just say you don't like Mozart and leave it at that?  When you try to go farther you just make a ridiculous spectacle of yourself.

Your first claim has nothing to do with honoring other people's opinions.  The ending chord progression was a quote from my Music, Theory and Harmony teacher.  However the course was decades ago and the alternate ending he said was used for the first time in Haydn's Surprise Symphony could have been IV-V-I not II-V-I, thus giving the world TWO not ONE ending chord progression choices.  He used this as a demonstration on how compositional rules can change with usage.  This of course has nothing to do with me, so that attack is uncalled for.

Second I OWN all of Rachmaninov's works for orchestra and piano and orchestra and I have NEVER heard hard dissonance in a single work.  Rachmaninov is one of my favorite composers and I do not buy the arguement that he has ever used hard dissonance and would love to know of a single example.

There are many composer's I do not like, I do not believe all of them are bad composers, if fact some of them are good, I just do not care for their music.  However I firmly believe Mozart is the worst composer I have ever heard on every single measurement level, but that is only my personal belief, every human being is FREE to believe as their heart tells them. 

As I said many, many, many times before GREATNESS is in the ears, eyes and mind of the beholder.  To believe otherwise is anti-freedom as it tries to push personal views on others. 

Why can't you RESPECT other people's opinions?  Why is that so hard for you?  You are the one making a spectacle of yourself (Not I) by denying other people opinions of greatness and worthiness based on your own value system. 

In short you believe in projecting your personal beliefs on others and I believe in personal freedom.  I firmly believe that ANYONE can express their beliefs in whatever music or composers they feel are Great, Good, Poor of Bad without the need to belittle them.  This is a lesson in life you may want to learn "let people freely express their opinions without the need to attack them".  It will make your life much easier.  Love and Peace always! 

[Mirror Image]

I have to agree with you Teresa about Mozart. I'm not a big fan at all. Never have been really. There's nothing about his music that draws me in or even remotely keeps me interested. I do like his "Requiem" though. I think this work is so haunting, and, for me, it expressed genuine emotion in the music. There was sense of fear, darkness, agony, and finally it all resolves to acceptance of the inevitable: death. I find it hard not to be moved by this stirring masterpiece.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I have to agree with you Teresa about Mozart. I'm not a big fan at all. Never have been really. There's nothing about his music that draws me in or even remotely keeps me interested. I do like his "Requiem" though. I think this work is so haunting, and, for me, it expressed genunine emotion in the music. There was sense of fear, darkness, agony, and finally it all resolves to acceptance of the inevitable: death. I find it hard not to be moved by this stirring masterpiece.

Then perhaps there is a chance you might find that vein of emotion in other of Mozart's works. I would suggest if nothing else the G minor string quintet, which, despite a final movement whose lively tone does not match the rest of the work, conveys very similar feelings to the Requiem - which, after all, is not entirely Mozart's work. The 3-4 minute introduction to the finale of that quintet should be enough in itself to set to rest any clichéd ideas about Mozart's inability to plumb deep emotions.

[Mirror Image]

Then perhaps there is a chance you might find that vein of emotion in other of Mozart's works. I would suggest if nothing else the G minor string quintet, which, despite a final movement whose lively tone does not match the rest of the work, conveys very similar feelings to the Requiem - which, after all, is not entirely Mozart's work. The 3-4 minute introduction to the finale of that quintet should be enough in itself to set to rest any clichéd ideas about Mozart's inability to plumb deep emotions.

I would rather spend my time listening to music I'm interested in hearing and also enjoy, then exploring a composer's music that I don't like and that I don't enjoy. Again, the only Mozart work I enjoy is "Requiem."

[JoshLilly]

I've never seen comparing composers bring happiness to anybody.

Why can't people take the modern gift of having access to tons of whatever music they want almost whenever they want, and be happy enough? It's a good thing. 130 years ago, we couldn't have heard most of this stuff. Even hardcore concertgoers heard only a tiny fraction of what any one of us has gotten to experience. You couldn't print out scores and look over them while listening, rewinding, playing over one passage 20 times to deeply explore and uncover some delightful nuance. Not that I can do that myself; I lack the ability to do anything but read music at the most rudimentary level. But for many here, it's true; and from what I understand, deeply rewarding.

Nobody can change anyone's opinion or taste like this, simply because there's nothing factually wrong with opinion or taste. (Note: I'm not touching onto anything about someone making incorrect statements about technical musical issues.) I hate everything I've ever heard by Shostakovich, and as far as I can tell, Sibelius' only worthwhile music over his entire life was the closing seconds of his Symphony #7. Who cares?  Even I don't. Why would anybody else? It doesn't hurt anybody for me to say that, but it doesn't help either; I don't think I've ever said anything negative about Shostakovich on this board before, simply because I don't see anything useful or enjoyable for anybody coming out of it.

I guess what I just said doesn't add anything either. I try not to post negative stuff about composers. I posted in a Jean Sibelius thread because I was interested in his life, and wanted more information about him and his music, but I didn't go into how I disliked his stuff. If I even mentioned my dislike at all, I wish I hadn't, and didn't mean to bring any negativity by it. It's not wrong to dislike something, but it's kind of a negative, and inserting negative vibes into a faceless text-only discussion (with emoticon pictures!) is hard to pull off in any way that will lead to anything positive. Just my rambling take, not trying to tell anybody what to do or anything.

I think W.A. Mozart was the greatest artist in any artistic field in all of history, but it doesn't take one iota of pleasure away from me to know that lots of people hate or are indifferent to his stuff. I guess I've always been bothered by folks telling others that they're wrong to dislike something a relative majority classifies as "great". Not sure why those folks would get much out of going around telling others about their hatred, but not sure why people would give them too much of a hard time about it, either.

Geez, I sound like such a hippy. Peace, love, and positive vibes, man.

[Scarpia]

Second I OWN all of Rachmaninov's works for orchestra and piano and orchestra and I have NEVER heard hard dissonance in a single work.  Rachmaninov is one of my favorite composers and I do not buy the arguement that he has ever used hard dissonance and would love to know of a single example.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.  I found a site with Rachmaninoff scores and found an obvious dissonance in the second bar of the first piece I looked at.

Prelude Opus 23, No. 1.  Second measure, left hand.  You will see an A# and a B# sounding at the first beat of the measure.  That is an interval of a major second, which is clearly a dissonance. 

http://www.sheetmusicfox.com/Rachmaninoff/prelude231.pdf

I'm guessing the issue is that you do not know what a dissonance is.

[Mirror Image]

Great post, JoshLily! Good to see you enjoy Raff. My Grandfather is a big Raff fan, but then again, he pretty much stays in the late Classical and Romantic periods and doesn't venture out much into the 20th Century, although, he's one of the biggest Rachmaninov nuts I know.

I catch alot of flack from him for liking 20th Century composers like Berg, Bartok, Martinu, Britten, etc., but quite honestly, I enjoy dissonance, but not for it's own sake of course. I think it can be such a creative tool for composers and is a great way to build tension in a composition.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I would rather spend my time listening to music I'm interested in hearing and also enjoy, then exploring a composer's music that I don't like and that I don't enjoy. Again, the only Mozart work I enjoy is "Requiem."

You are of course entirely free to like and enjoy whatever you like. And to dislike whatever you dislike. (Teresa, please take note.) I only hope to plant a seed, in hopes that it might spark some interest, some willingness to get beyond entrenched attitudes. If not, I usually shrug my shoulders, and unless I'm in a particularly truculent mood, I'm not going to fight any one who resists my suggestions.

I would agree also that there is no objective way to prove the absolute or relative greatness of any work of music. That ability is only in the mind of God, that is if she exists, and if she does, she ain't telling anybody. To say greatness is objective is to say it can be mathematically proven, and since "greatness" by nature is an aesthetic judgment, it is not subject to proof in any objective way.

And yet I don't find it any more satisfactory to say "greatness" is purely a matter of individual opinion. For one thing, like it or not, we are all influenced by the culture we grow up in, a culture that prizes Shakespeare and Beethoven very highly, and Bulwer-Lytton and Joachim Raff considerably less so (pace Joshua Lilly). There is a very human desire to preserve and share the works of art that people most esteem, and to transmit that appreciation down to others. That is less a desire to suppress individual freedom than an urge for people to share what they feel is valuable.

And for the most part this process of cultural transmission seems to succeed. You can sense it, say, in the collective response of an audience to the performance of a powerful work like the Verdi Requiem or King Lear. You can sense it when you stand in front of a Vermeer for 20 minutes and find a momentary connection with the person standing as long beside you. Pace Teresa, most of us don't all go our separate ways, each valuing a wholly personal set of works while turning our backs on our own personal list. There's no bullying here, no attempt to impose opinions or tastes, but rather a desire to share what we have learned to accept as "greatness" and a willingness to be open to what others have to transmit.

Nice to see Joshua back.

[Teresa]

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.  I found a site with Rachmaninoff scores and found an obvious dissonance in the second bar of the first piece I looked at.

Prelude Opus 23, No. 1.  Second measure, left hand.  You will see an A# and a B# sounding at the first beat of the measure.  That is an interval of a major second, which is clearly a dissonance. 

http://www.sheetmusicfox.com/Rachmaninoff/prelude231.pdf

I'm guessing the issue is that you do not know what a dissonance is.

Thanks for providing the example that is clearly an A# and a B# sounding at the same time, however I have not heard this piece, so I guess I should avoid it.   

I clearly said "I OWN all of Rachmaninov's works for orchestra and piano and orchestra and I have NEVER heard hard dissonance in a single work."  The only solo piano work I have heard by Rachmaninov is the Prelude in C sharp minor.  I do not own it, I like orchestral music and that is mostly what I own.  I do not like the UGLY sound of hard dissonance, surely you know what I mean?

But once again you are AVOIDING the real issue of personal freedom and the RIGHT to choose what music one likes and which composers one thinks are Great, Good, Poor or Bad.  This is a BASIC human right YOU can not take away from anyone no matter how hard you try.   

[Mirror Image]

You are of course entirely free to like and enjoy whatever you like. And to dislike whatever you dislike. (Teresa, please take note.) I only hope to plant a seed, in hopes that it might spark some interest, some willingness to get beyond entrenched attitudes. If not, I usually shrug my shoulders, and unless I'm in a particularly truculent mood, I'm not going to fight any one who resists my suggestions.

I don't think it's such a terrible thing to dislike a composer. I'm sure there are composers who you particularly don't care for right? I'm sure there are. I just enjoy more adventurous music: harmonically, rhythmically, melodically, and structurally speaking, so, obviously, the Classical Era does little for me.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I don't think it's such a terrible thing to dislike a composer. I'm sure there are composers who you particularly don't care for right? I'm sure there are. I just enjoy more adventurous music: harmonically, rhythmically, melodically, and structurally speaking, so, obviously, the Classical Era does little for me.

Your money, your life, your choice. I don't terribly care. I try to remain open to a wide range of periods and styles. But I think that within the context of his era, Mozart is every bit as "adventurous: harmonically, rhythmically, melodically, and structurally speaking," as some of the composers you esteem.

[Teresa]

... Mozart is every bit as "adventurous: harmonically, rhythmically, melodically, and structurally speaking," as some of the composers you esteem.

There is a Mozart I like who I think was adventurous way beyond his time, Wolfgang's father Leopold!  Especially Musical Sleigh Ride and the Toy Symphony.  Listen to sound samples Both works use sound effects, in addition to actual toys and wind machine in the Toy Symphony.   However there is doubt that Leopold actually composed either work.  IMHO both works are easily 100 years ahead of their time.