Mendelssohn vs. Schoenberg

[karlhenning]

Just don't get me started on plums, Bruce.

How to defend yourself against an assailant armed with fresh fruit

[karlhenning]

I was trying to be polite .

Admirable restraint! ; )

[Saul]

Just so people wouldn't think I invented the Brahms' quote, click on this link, the very last sentence on the review page...
Apparently others besides me have read the quote:



http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-3-Hebrides-Overture/dp/B000F7BO1M

[Saul]

How to defend yourself against an assailant armed with fresh fruit

Is that a Ba Na Na?

[Luke]

/quote]

Very odd, Saul, why wouldn't we believe it? Do you really think it's that odd that Brahms would say such a thing? You don't have much faith in Mendelssohn, perhaps....he's really a very good composer, you know. Brahms admired his fluency and directness of utterance, I suspect. So yes, personally, I can perfectly well believe Brahms said that. As I've said, and Karl has said, and Mike has said, Brahms is well known for statements of this sort, though none as unambiguous as the one I mentioned - that Mozart was the greatest of all composers.

Really, none of these statements from one composer about another really mean much on their own, mind you. It's the consensus that means something, if anything does, and consensus takes time to reach, it needs perspective and hindsight. In the 1840s Mendelssohn may have been viewed one way; by 1890, after Brahms and Wagner, with Debuusy in the offing etc. the musical world looked very different, and the consensus had changed.

[petrarch]

Schoenberg's music and atonal music in general, is very poor and not pleasing, and no 'excuses' and no 'intellectuality' can confuse this fact.

You seem to imply that liking one precludes liking the other. Please don't assume other people have the same narrow taste.

As there appears to be a mood for quotes, here's another one: "To understand Schoenberg is to better understand Bach".

[Bulldog]

Luke,

Bernstein clearly said that Beethoven's flaws need to be adjusted by the conductor, listen carefully he said 'Balancing' the Orchestra so one instrument wouldn't swallow the others. If that's not a flaw in writing music, then what is?

I'm amazed that Saul would use the Bernstein video to support the notion that Beethoven isn't so great.  "Phoned in by God" - that's all you need to understand Bernstein's views on Beethoven's music.

[Elgarian]

How to defend yourself against an assailant armed with fresh fruit

Excellent and timely advice, Karl. If we get on to whether bananas are better than Beethoven, it could turn really nasty.

[Saul]

I'm amazed that Saul would use the Bernstein video to support the notion that Beethoven isn't so great.  "Phoned in by God" - that's all you need to understand Bernstein's views on Beethoven's music.

I never said Beethoven was not great.

[Saul]

You seem to imply that liking one precludes liking the other. Please don't assume other people have the same narrow taste.

As there appears to be a mood for quotes, here's another one: "To understand Schoenberg is to better understand Bach".

Oh comeon...don't compare him to Bach now.. please.

[petrarch]

When one realizes their tonal compositions are considerably worse than what come before then one needs either a new way or an new line of work.  Schoenberg's new way was atonal. 

...until you realize that atonality "was in the air" for a long time. I'd really like you to quantify and precisely elaborate on that "considerably worse" of yours (other than "I really really really don't like it," of course).

[Scarpia]

I never said Beethoven was not great.

Do you even know what you are saying? 

[Saul]

[quote author=SaulJust so people wouldn't think I invented the Brahms' quote, click on this link, the very last sentence on the review page...
Apparently others besides me have read the quote:

Very odd, Saul, why wouldn't we believe it? Do you really think it's that odd that Brahms would say such a thing? You don't have much faith in Mendelssohn, perhaps....he's really a very good composer, you know. Brahms admired his fluency and directness of utterance, I suspect. So yes, personally, I can perfectly well believe Brahms said that. As I've said, and Karl has said, and Mike has said, Brahms is well known for statements of this sort, though none as unambiguous as the one I mentioned - that Mozart was the greatest of all composers.

Really, none of these statements from one composer about another really mean much on their own, mind you. It's the consensus that means something, if anything does, and consensus takes time to reach, it needs perspective and hindsight. In the 1840s Mendelssohn may have been viewed one way; by 1890, after Brahms and Wagner, with Debuusy in the offing etc. the musical world looked very different, and the consensus had changed.

I said it to reassure, that's all.

And your strategy of simplifying Brahms astonishing quote is not working, Luke.

[Luke]

I said it to reassure, that's all.

And your strategy of simplifying Brahms astonishing quote is not working, Luke.

Huh? I really don't get why it is astonishing. Are you astonished, Saul, that Brahms should admire that piece of Mendelssohn's so much? I'm not.

No more than I'm astonished that Brahms wished he'd written the Blue Danube waltz, too, and the Dvorak Cello Concerto....

[Bulldog]

I never said Beethoven was not great.

There you go again - playing games with the English language when you're cornered by multiple fellow board members.  Of course, your stating of opinions as facts is what usually makes you look foolish.

Here's a fact.  Schoenberg is easily beating Mendelssohn in the poll; take it like a man.

[petrarch]

Oh comeon...don't compare him to Bach now.. please.

No. Looks like you need to do some reading... please.

[Saul]

Nice

Nice what...? did you ask him who said it? maybe an atonal modern composer that had to say it in order to save his music from ruin?
Sometimes composers and musicians will use these stretched out delusional comments in order to achieve personal gains, but again its all wrapped up in the hype of intellectuality. Roll around this long enough with a number of 'intellectuals' deciding that something ugly is beautiful, and you'll believe it.
Its a trick on the mind, as the famous saying goes :"Say the lie long enough and everyone will believe it".

Bach was so much greater then Schoenberg, there is nothing what to talk about.

[Luke]

Its a trick on the mind, as the famous saying goes :"Say the lie long enough and everyone will believe it".

Yes, Saul, we've watched you try the tactic yourself for years....   

Bach was so much greater then Schoenberg, there is nothing what to talk about.

Schoenberg would have agreed. Of course he was. Mendelssohn was no Bach, though, and he knew it, too.

[Saul]

There you go again - playing games with the English language when you're cornered by multiple fellow board members.  Of course, your stating of opinions as facts is what usually makes you look foolish.

Here's a fact.  Schoenberg is easily beating Mendelssohn in the poll; take it like a man.

If anyone will point out where I said that Beethoven was not a great composer, I will buy you a present.
In fact I listed him as one of my top five composers.

[Scarpia]

If anyone will point out where I said that Beethoven was not a great composer, I will buy you a present.
In fact I listed him as one of my top five composers.

After I don't know how many pages of nonsense, you've reached a point where almost every poster on this board disagrees with you, to the extent they can even figure out what you are trying to say.  Maybe it is time to give it a rest.