Chez Stravinsky

[ritter]

Cheers, Rafael!  Although I have not yet started in on the Pulcinella, this Boulez/CSO account of the Symphony in Three Movements is exquisite, so I owe you great thanks already 

My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.

Boulez may have stated his dislike for neo-classical or, more prceisely, "middle-period" Stravinsky, but made some exceptions: Pulcienlla (of which he wrote glowingly and gave a great performance in this wondedrful CSO CD), the Symphony in three movements (which he recorded twice), Dumbarton Oaks... But unfortunately, no Scènes de Ballet  .

The composer himself joked about that: "He [Rimsky] looked at me as Boulez might if I had suggested playing my Scènes de Ballet at Darmstadt"

[Mahlerian]

My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.

Boulez may have stated his dislike for neo-classical or, more prceisely, "middle-period" Stravinsky, but made some exceptions: Pulcienlla (of which he wrote glowingly and gave a great performance in this wondedrful CSO CD), the Symphony in three movements (which he recorded twice), Dumbarton Oaks... But unfortunately, no Scènes de Ballet  .

The composer himself joked about that: "He [Rimsky] looked at me as Boulez might if I had suggested playing my Scènes de balllet at Darmstadt"

He did a fine Ebony Concerto too, with the EI.  Boulez picked and chose somewhat at random from Stravinsky's middle period.  I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.

[ritter]

I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.

A classic!  Similar to "Bernini of the suburbs" he used for the Turangalîla...

Boulez could be very witty when nasty! 

[kishnevi]

He did a fine Ebony Concerto too, with the EI.  Boulez picked and chose somewhat at random from Stravinsky's middle period.  I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.

He seems to have used the phrase more than once, and as a criticism of an entire period

If I look in the period between the two Wars in France or in Europe generally, there was a marvelous period before the First World War.   In 1910, 1915, 1917, 1918, there were a lot of discoveries in all fields, especially in music.  There were some great works, and then after in this period of Two Wars, there was a tendency to be so-called classical, and then lots of people wanted to be historically classical.  When you see that now, you see it's just fake.  That's like a plastic Greek temple, for instance, and that does not fit at all.  History has been very quick to look at that in a very severe way, and to make this period before and during the First World War a really very, very strong period in inventiveness and creativity.  Then the period in between was like something which is really tired and not interesting, short of ideas and trying to fulfill an ideal which was very artificial and uninteresting. 

---http://www.bruceduffie.com/boulez.html

[Karl Henning]

My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.

At once more "in line" with a typical interpretation (and thus, as we've discussed, already at variance with the Ensemble InterContemporain & al. performance), yet still distinctive in many details, and crystal-clear.

Thanks again for the suggestion!

[Karl Henning]

Probably my two favorite recordings are Craft's:

[asin]B000675OGM[/asin]

And James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:

[asin]B00GJ6NQIC[/asin]

In the tally of the present discussion, add the footnotes that I need to revisit Lenny, and I have yet to settle down to listen to the Eötvös.

I hang my head in shame, for having forgot that I also have the Ančerl:



I don't like having omitted it, but I also want to re-listen before telling snypsss he must, must, must purchase  0:)

[Karl Henning]

Audio only:  I would suggest Bernstein.

You're absolutely right, Jeffrey; this is smashing & exuberant.

[kishnevi]

You're absolutely right, Jeffrey; this is smashing & exuberant.

Breathes sigh of relief...

[snyprrr]

I'm really settling into this thing now, and a snowstorm is the perfect opportunity to delve into austere works such as the Septet (1953). I try looking at it as a 'Septet' proper, and as such I place it firmly in the context of Tradition. By my reckoning, we have our Nonet by Martinu, our Octet by Hindemith, and our Septet by Stravinsky as our Modern bearers of the Tradition. And, because they are all 'Late Works', and written at a time when most all Composers' languages were becoming pricklier, these are great examples of how this generation of Composers continued the Tradition which nurtured them. The Hindemith, and the Stravinsky in particular, are tough and roughly rugged works, bristling with "difficulty" on the ear, coupled with memorable melodies and moments of repose.

The Sravinsky recording of his Septet is so of a time, and is played perfectly understated. It smells like a snowstorm in D.C.

[snyprrr]

What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence? I know we have Varese, but I'm thinking more of the Gay Paris stuff,... or,... I mean, is it Mossolov and Antheil, or more just like Auric,... ??... anyone?...

I know by 1939-50, most Composers were writing their Big Neo-Classic Works: Stravinsky, DSCH, Hindemith, on down the line, all writing Big Symphonies and such, no time for Gay Paris then!

So, I'm thinking that heyday, that seems to peak

a) early 20s, 1919-1924/5

b) seems to peak @1928-32

c) resurgence @1936-7?

and then, boom!, it all turns into Big Symphonies for the war. Anyone help out here?

[Karl Henning]

Breathes sigh of relief...

Me, too. I mean, I was (now) fully prepared to have ears for it. A little disappointed that, back when I first owned the disc, I just didn't hear it. But I'm lovin' it now, which is what matters.


Must revisit the Ančerl ....

[DaveF]

What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence?

Interesting question.  There's a whole English strand - Bliss, Walton, Berners, even Tippett sometimes (the 2nd Symphony).
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

[cilgwyn]

I hang my head in shame, for having forgot that I also have the Ančerl:



I don't like having omitted it, but I also want to re-listen before telling snypsss he must, must, must purchase  0:)

Thanks for the suggestions for recordings of Les Noces. I must admit I'm not a Bernstein admirer. Although,each to his own! His recordings of American music,aside.. I think I'd go for Craft;and Ancerl is usually very good. The hyperion could be another choice?

[Mahlerian]

And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

American music in general is heavily saturated with Stravinsky influence.  The American 12-tone composers, for example, didn't just draw on Schoenberg and Webern, but also on the rhythms of Stravinsky.

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for the suggestions for recordings of Les Noces. I must admit I'm not a Bernstein admirer. Although,each to his own! His recordings of American music,aside.. I think I'd go for Craft;and Ancerl is usually very good. The hyperion could be another choice?

Do you mean this 'un?—

. . . James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:

[asin]B00GJ6NQIC[/asin]

I do like it very much.  (Or am I confused about Helios being a subset of Hyperion?)

[snyprrr]

Do you mean this 'un?—

I do like it very much.  (Or am I confused about Helios being a subset of Hyperion?)

Just a reissue moniker, like Redline, Exelsioire by Atragon...a reissue with a twist (it's delicious!)


Just received Abbado 'Pulcinella/Jeu de Cartes'... oooo, what a heavy little jewel case it is, buhttp://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/kiss.gifget label (Galleria = Helios)

I LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY CURSOR JUST DID??

anyhow...


Abbado 'Pulcinella/Jeu de Cartes'... I don't know if I'm ready for this right now, I'm kind of stuck on the 'Movements',... Richter's version is by FAR the most Modern sounding, almost sci-fi ennui,... really different feel than most others.

[snyprrr]

Music for Piano and Orchestra

Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI

Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca

Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY


I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?

He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...

mOVEMENTS

Mrs. Weber (Premiere;1959) on YT with Bour

Richter (1961?)

Rosen/ IS (1963?)

Beroff/ Ozawa (1973?)

Crossley/ Salonen (1988)
Mustonen/ Ashkenazy (1995?)

Osborne/ Volkov (2011?)
Bavouzet/ Tortelier (2012?)


I've been scouring for recordings today, listening closely (even 1min samples go a long way in this music!). The most eye opening of all was Richter, who, with his conductor (?) conjure an alien landscape that sounds like the best sci-fi music I've ever heard. No one else makes this music sound like something other than a pure dodecaphonic exercise, albeit, most of these performance have (by necessity) a great artistry. The other two early versions I feel are none-starters simply for the sound, and perhaps some of the orchestral work,... maybe, or not, can't remember.

Beroff seems to get criticism, but I don't know if it's him, or Ozawa, or the recording, that is being criticized. I though his 'Movements' had a very exciting and Modern tone, with a splashy sounding (though perhaps slightly flawed?) recording.

The Crossley and Mustonen rivalry has been the one going for some time, but, for no other reason than SONY's sound for Salonen seems to be missing the very high end, and/or, the piano image can get obscured by the orchestra, Mustonen must win by default. (SantaFe Listener points this out too) I like Mustonen's hyper-refined fingers, and, the more I listen to the newer takes, he still comes away many times with the clarity, and the zippiness. The Decca sound for Ashkenazy is typical, so, it is very very good, more polite than the SONY, but you hear everything very nicely, at a slight recess, but with just attack.

As far as the playing, Crossley/Salonen seems more... ardent?...passionate?...Mustonen/Ashkenazy are perhaps more... laboratory and athletic? Crossley takes the 1st the slowest of all, but, when one looks at the timings for most, they all fall around the same bracket, even though most "sound" much faster than Crossley. Mustonen has a very pointallistic touch, which he uses to advantage in the 2nd "cimbalom" sounding section.

So then we more along and Osborne and Bavouzet both come out practically together. This has aided is getting reviews, though, honestly, not many reviewers have more than one other version, usually Salonen. Though both of these new versions sound much more perfectly than any before, they don't necessarily stand so very much higher. Osborne and Volkov are given a drier (though ample) styled Hyperion treatment (which sounds like Chandos to me); the Chandos seems a little more alive. Reviewers seemed to marginally favour the Chandos as generally livelier in all departments. In the 'Movements', Osborne really yields nothing to Bavouzet, though, the latter's backdrop is heard to better effect. In all, Bavouzet/Tortelier, and Mustonen/Ashkenazy seem to have the best sound, and even though the Chandos is "super modern" sound, the Decca mid-90s sound is everything one might expect from a good Decca/Ashkenazy deal (which I usually rate quite highly, sound wise).

None of the four Digital versions deliver any kind of individual performance like the Richter, but, they all try very hard to get everything right, and, so, sound can make a difference here. Though the attenuation on the SONY is at its least in the 'Movements', when one compares the detail of the Decca one can still hear how the SONY recording (though, technically very very good in all other respects) seems to obscure detail (almost reminds me of some Virgin recordings, "dry and fluffy" I call it).


One of the main luxury issues with all these releases is that 'Complete Music for Piano and Orchestra' is less than 50mins., and all the releases have differing fill-ups, most of which, frankly, make no sense to me. I'd rather have the solo piano pieces, rather than the 'Volga Boatman', or the 'Ebony' Concerto,... or 'Petrushka' for that matter (oy vey- that's taking "Complete" a bit far, no?).

Frankly, I look towards a Knussen driven 'Movements', maybe with Alan Feinberg? hmmm...

[Monsieur Croche]

What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence? I know we have Varese, but I'm thinking more of the Gay Paris stuff,... or,... I mean, is it Mossolov and Antheil, or more just like Auric,... ??... anyone?...

I know by 1939-50, most Composers were writing their Big Neo-Classic Works: Stravinsky, DSCH, Hindemith, on down the line, all writing Big Symphonies and such, no time for Gay Paris then!

So, I'm thinking that heyday, that seems to peak
a) early 20s, 1919-1924/5
b) seems to peak @1928-32
c) resurgence @1936-7?
and then, boom!, it all turns into Big Symphonies for the war. Anyone help out here?

The Boston School group of composers (at Harvard):
Arthur Berger, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Irving Fine, Lukas Foss, and Harold Shapero were all strongly influenced by Stravinsky's neoclassical style and that 'more French' sensibility and aesthetic, in which Nadia Boulanger had a hugely influential hand...

N.B. There are some really good and substantial works from each of these composers.
I've cited below almost exclusively those works sounding more or less neoclassical.  A number of these composers developed distinctly different vocabularies and styles later, including embracing or partially using -- in their own manner -- serialsm.

Foss ~ Song of Songs 1946
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstl1bY1Z2k
Capriccio for 'Cello and piano 1948
His later Symphony No.2, "Symphony of Chorales" 1958 -- a stunning 'big' symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1p4Em0hzQ

Irving Fine ~ Music for piano 1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0Rxc3MFHA
The Choral New Yorker (1944, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHJcaBmhpJw

Arthur Berger ~ Suite for Piano Four-hands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nov1oSd5z9k
Ideas of Order, for orchestra -- another noteworthy symphonic work. (early to mid-50's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ZL1Uia7Q
His remarkable tonal and serial Duo for 'Cello and Piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDVbgriNQY

Harold Shapero ~ Four-Hand Sonata for Piano 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSUXx3stiU

There are really fine chamber works from this group of composers as well as some large symphonic works, not all 'big symphonies after the war,' lol.  {Large symphonic ensemble works are, generally, the most popular, so the ones you become more aware of than all the rest of these composer's works.)

Stravinsky's ultimate clarification (if not invention) of polychordal harmonies, and especially bi-tonality / polytonality via Petrushka, was undoubtedly seminal and did have a direct influence on the styles of the other European neoclassicists, Milhaud, Honegger, Frank Martin, Martinu, etc.  It is difficult to imagine their works as they are if Stravinsky had not set precedents and been so influential.  I would to some degree say this influence was 'direct,' while if you listen to any of the Boston school group of composers -- and there are more than just a few fine works from each of them -- or the 'Euro crowd,' it is apparent, as usual, that the 'good ones' we still find interesting and of value were each their own, put their own stamp and sensibility on and into what they wrote.

[snyprrr]

The Boston School group of composers (at Harvard):
Arthur Berger, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Irving Fine, Lukas Foss, and Harold Shapero were all strongly influenced by Stravinsky's neoclassical style and that 'more French' sensibility and aesthetic, in which Nadia Boulanger had a hugely influential hand...

N.B. There are some really good and substantial works from each of these composers.
I've cited below almost exclusively those works sounding more or less neoclassical.  A number of these composers developed distinctly different vocabularies and styles later, including embracing or partially using -- in their own manner -- serialsm.

Foss ~ Song of Songs 1946
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstl1bY1Z2k
Capriccio for 'Cello and piano 1948
His later Symphony No.2, "Symphony of Chorales" 1958 -- a stunning 'big' symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1p4Em0hzQ

Irving Fine ~ Music for piano 1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0Rxc3MFHA
The Choral New Yorker (1944, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHJcaBmhpJw

Arthur Berger ~ Suite for Piano Four-hands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nov1oSd5z9k
Ideas of Order, for orchestra -- another noteworthy symphonic work. (early to mid-50's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ZL1Uia7Q
His remarkable tonal and serial Duo for 'Cello and Piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDVbgriNQY

Harold Shapero ~ Four-Hand Sonata for Piano 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSUXx3stiU

There are really fine chamber works from this group of composers as well as some large symphonic works, not all 'big symphonies after the war,' lol.  {Large symphonic ensemble works are, generally, the most popular, so the ones you become more aware of then all the rest of these composer's works.)

Stravinsky's ultimate clarification (if not invention) of polychordal harmonies, and especially bi-tonality / polytonality via Petrushka, was undoubtedly seminal and did have a direct influence on the styles of the other European neoclassicists, Milhaud, Honegger, Frank Martin, Martinu, etc.  It is difficult to imagine their works as they are if Stravinsky had not set precedents and been so influential.  I would to some degree say this influence was 'direct,' while if you listen to any of the Boston school group of composers -- and there are more than just a few fine works from each of them -- or the 'Euro crowd,' it is apparent, as usual, that the 'good ones' we still find interesting and of value were each their own, put their own stamp and sensibility on and into what they wrote.

yes, yes, and, yes

Interesting question.  There's a whole English strand - Bliss, Walton, Berners, even Tippett sometimes (the 2nd Symphony).
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

Yes, I heard that too!

[Mirror Image]

And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

I think Bruckner and Sibelius beat ol' Igor to the proto-minimialistic punch here.