Chez Stravinsky

Started by karlhenning, April 09, 2007, 08:24:18 AM

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jowcol

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2009, 05:06:30 AM
But then, of course, there's pretty tunes a-plenty in Stravinsky.

Ten fine melodies one recalls right off:

1.  The March from L'histoire du soldat
2.  The Lacrimosa from Requiem Canticles
3.  All of the Cantata, really, but let's settle on "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day"
4.  The Overture to Mavra
5.  The Bridgegroom's song on the last page of Svadebka
6.  The Gloria from the Mass
7.  The Notturno from the Concerto per due pianoforti
8.  More instances than can be briefly mentioned, in the Symphony in Three Movements and the Symphony in C.
9.  The Alleluia which concludes A Sermon, A Narrative & A Prayer.
10.  And, of course, the Alleluia at the end of the Symphony of Psalms.

. . . and this list makes a point of avoiding "the usual suspects," i.e., the folk melody borrowings in Le sacre, Petrushka & L'oiseau, and the 'found sources' of the neo-classical works.

One of the greatest melodic works of Stravinsky is his Pastorale-- that is really lovely-- it's been on repeat this morning.  Although I would  certain rank Prokofiev's gifts with melody much higher. 

"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

karlhenning

Quote
We can dream, '

Curious.  The post to which I replied there has been deleted (by the author, I presume, as there was no offense in't that I knew of).

Ah, well.

karlhenning

Quote from: jowcol on June 08, 2009, 09:02:46 AM
One of the greatest melodic works of Stravinsky is his Pastorale-- that is really lovely-- it's been on repeat this morning.  Although I would  certain rank Prokofiev's gifts with melody much higher. 

I know I've listened to the Pastorale; but I don't recall a note of it.  Where 20 other pieces of Stravinsky's, were memorable from an initial hearing.

Just an observation. I haven't sussed out its significance (yet).

Nick

Is "Le Baiser de la Fee" a neoclassical or a neoromantic work?

karlhenning

Honk if you've heard the "Igor's Boogie" tracks on Burnt Weenie Sandwich

Nick

In your opinion, should pieces like Le Baiser de la Fee, Pulcinella, Suite Italienne be hyphenated (i.e. Tchaikovsky-Stravinsky, etc.)? Be cited as an arrangement (i.e. Tchaikovsky [arr. Stravinsky])? Credited with Stravinsky's name only? Why or why not?

Nick

So you would credit the music with only Stravinsky's name?

Nick

I think Stravinsky should get the same kind of crediting treatment that everyone else does. There's, what, 20-30 different pieces that are extracted from Tchaikovsky in that work? If it were any other composer, it would be listed as an arrangement. A lot of Respighi's works are like this, and they're listed with Respighi at a latter part of the hyphen.

In Pulcinella, there's 21 musical numbers with 21 different sources from Baroque composers.

I like Stravinsky (not as much as some of you), but he's overrated, and he should be looked at in a more even-handed way.

Melodies are a big deal, and a lot of these transcriptions are very straight-forward

Nick

If they did, in fact, use a theme from Stravinsky, they should have credited him.

Rhythms are different from melodies. Taking the theme from Sleeping Beauty is different than using 4/4, like in Sleeping Beauty.

Taking one melody is different from a composition composed entirely out of other people's melodies. Even when you do take one melody, we have titles like Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge. This is important.

If a composer doesn't credit the person in the title, (ala. Tchaikovsky: Suite for Orchestra, No.4, Op. 61 "Mozartiana," etc.), he should do it the way everyone else does it, with Tchaikovsky (arr. Stravinsky): Le Basir de la Fee. I don't particularly respect Stravinsky for keeping quite on folk-based material for his most famous scores either.

I'll be back later tonight--errands.

karlhenning

Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2009, 03:11:36 PM
I like Stravinsky (not as much as some of you), but he's overrated . . . .

Is he?  How do we try that assertion, pray?

QuoteMelodies are a big deal, and a lot of these transcriptions are very straight-forward

If you think that Pulcinella and Le baiser de la fée are "straight-forward transcriptions," then what is "overrated" here is your musical analysis.

Good errand-running to you!

Nick

#230
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2009, 04:55:40 PMGood errand-running to you!

Try to calm down.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2009, 04:55:40 PMIs he? How do we try that assertion, pray?
How do we try the assertion for anything having to do with the quality of art?

Maybe one way you can try making qualitative assertions about music is to actually listen to all the works of certain composers before making comparative statements about absolute greatness.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2009, 04:55:40 PMIf you think that Pulcinella and Le baiser de la fée are "straight-forward transcriptions," then what is "overrated" here is your musical analysis.

Overrated (adj): Anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Here's a quote from Robert Craft: "The only original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella is a short bridge section and the introduction to the Tarantella. . . . The Pulcinella Gavotta and its Variations, the Toccata (from the Seventh Sonata for Clavier), the Tarantella, the Overture and the other pieces from the First, Second, and Eighth Sonatas for Two Violins, the cut time 'Troika' (Scherzino), the Serenata (Polidoro's aria from the first act of Il Flamino), and the Minuet (another opera aria) are in substance only slightly altered from the originals; moreover, Stravinsky has incorporated most of the pieces in their entireties."

karlhenning

Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2009, 06:06:29 PM
Try to calm down.

Pray, who is anything other than calm?

Quote from: NickMaybe one way you can try making qualitative assertions about music is to actually listen to all the works of certain composers before making comparative statements about absolute greatness.

So, you have listened to all of Stravinsky's works, and you are pronouncing to the world that he is "overrated";  and anyone who contests your statement (which means scarcely anything, save that your preferences are elsewhere), I suppose that person's "error" stems from the fact that he's actually listened to less of Stravinsky's music than have you?

Quote from: NickOverrated (adj): Anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Oh! Someone who imagines that we lack a dictionary!  Jolly good, pumping up your fatuity quotient!

Quote from: NickHere's a quote from Robert Craft: "The only original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella is a short bridge section and the introduction to the Tarantella. . . . The Pulcinella Gavotta and its Variations, the Toccata (from the Seventh Sonata for Clavier), the Tarantella, the Overture and the other pieces from the First, Second, and Eighth Sonatas for Two Violins, the cut time 'Troika' (Scherzino), the Serenata (Polidoro's aria from the first act of Il Flamino), and the Minuet (another opera aria) are in substance only slightly altered from the originals; moreover, Stravinsky has incorporated most of the pieces in their entireties."

Here's three pieces of news for you:

1.)  I have read a great deal more that Craft has had to say about the piece than this.  And I've read a great deal that Craft has had to say about Le baiser de la fée, besides.  In neither case does his commentary reduce facilely to "this piece is just straight-forward transcription."

2.) Specifically, this passage you have cited does not mean that Pulcinella is "just straight-forward transcription."

3.) If Pulcinella is only "straight-forward transcriptions," then put your musical intelligence where your mouth is:  transcribe something (anything) straightforwardly, and it will be just as good, right?  Of course, it will!  You can set to work anytime;  we'll all await the musical result.  If Stravinsky's work here is "overrated," why then, your only slight alterations from the original(s) will be just as good, won't they?

If you see no difference in the order of creative input which Stravinsky applied to the source material for Pulcinella, in comparison to (e.g.) his scoring of Bach's Vom Himmel hoch Canonic Variations (which I am sure you have studied closely, since you're here 'correcting' the consensus by your revelation that Stravinsky is "overrated"), then you have gauged your musical acumen quite sufficiently.

One of the variants on the old joke is, How many drummers does it take to change a light-bulb?

25:  One to change the bulb, and 24 to claim, "Heck, I can do that."

I see drumsticks in your hand, Nick.

karlhenning

Quote from: ' on June 16, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
What do these pieces have in common (apart from the fact that they are by Stravinsky)?

Violin Concerto
Renard
Jeu de Cartes
Duo Concertant
Cantata
...

'
(I think Karl's going to get it')

Well, I was trying to do a little searching to test my guess.

karlhenning

Hmm. Let me mull . . . .

bhodges

Quote from: ' on June 17, 2009, 03:46:48 AM
Note Google's special Greeting as a Prelude to your searches today.'

Nice, isn't it!  And Tom Service in The Guardian has good comments on the whole thing, here.

--Bruce

karlhenning

Yes, although he sounds surprised that the art dept at Google isn't as good as Chagall  8)

Nick

#236
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PMSo, you have listened to all of Stravinsky's works, and you are pronouncing to the world that he is "overrated";  and anyone who contests your statement (which means scarcely anything, save that your preferences are elsewhere), I suppose that person's "error" stems from the fact that he's actually listened to less of Stravinsky's music than have you?
Hey Karl, what's your favorite recording of Prokofiev's Two Poems for Women's Voice and Orchestra, Op.7?

This seems like a "let's change the topic!" Clearly, I was referring to the fact that you haven't heard a lot of Prokofiev music.

Nick

#237
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PMOne of the variants on the old joke is, How many drummers does it take to change a light-bulb?

25:  One to change the bulb, and 24 to claim, "Heck, I can do that."

I see drumsticks in your hand, Nick.

Now this you're actually right about. A drummer came over to my place yesterday to practice. I was actually a tap dancer and danced at (Broadway: Alice Tully Hall, Town Hall, Duke Ellington Theatre and Off-Broadway: Public Theatre, Village Gate) as a soloist.

I danced with a spoon man too at Alice Tully, I think. He had a lot of spoons.

Nick

#238
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PMOh! Someone who imagines that we lack a dictionary!  Jolly good, pumping up your fatuity quotient!

Dear dumbass, why are you so stupid? I was saying that the best way to appreciate and assess a piece of music is to listen to it. If you're going to throw a temper-tantrum every time we engage in perfectly acceptable discourse, just leave out some of the bathroom humor.

Nick

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM2.) Specifically, this passage you have cited does not mean that Pulcinella is "just straight-forward transcription."

Tell us then how a piece that does not contain any original music except a short bridge section and introduction to the Tarantella, with a source for each of its numbers, most of which are incorporated in their entireties, unaltered is an original piece of music.

So you've read Robert Craft. Point us to the page where tells us, "I take it back. There's more original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella other than a short bridge section and introduction to Tarantella." Show me the page where he says that Stravinsky does not take the pieces in their entireties.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM3.) If Pulcinella is only "straight-forward transcriptions," then put your musical intelligence where your mouth is:  transcribe something (anything) straightforwardly, and it will be just as good, right?  Of course, it will!  You can set to work anytime;  we'll all await the musical result.  If Stravinsky's work here is "overrated," why then, your only slight alterations from the original(s) will be just as good, won't they?
This is nonsense. Of course, if I take a CD of the best Verdi arias, taking out a note here and there from the second oboe, I'd have a pretty good program! I'd just slap my name to it, and somewhere on the last page of the notes, I'd say something about Verdi.

It was actually in conversation with a music Professor at Vassar College (and Stravinskyite) that we came to the conclusion that anyone else in the 20th century would not have gotten away with the kind of crediting that went on in Pulcinella and Le Basir de la Fee.