Author Topic: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)  (Read 19682 times)

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Sean

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2013, 01:27:45 PM »
The Super voices musicales with Pro antique cantione as coupled with the Ockeghem Requiem is an amazingly rich all male choir recording with individual voices only partly dissolved into the whole, one of the greatest renaissance music recordings.

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 01:36:41 PM »
The Super voices musicales with Pro antique cantione as coupled with the Ockeghem Requiem

I have that Ockeghem Requiem on the original Archiv LP, coupled with Josquin's Deploration. It's a slow performance, but very fervent and intense, and I like the discreet instrumental accompaniment. By comparison, my other recording of the Requiem (Clerks' Group) is way too bright and prosaic.
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Sean

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2013, 01:52:36 PM »
Absolutely, the brass ensemble accompaniment is discretion incarnate. An extremely sophisticated issue.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 09:56:50 AM »



This recording of Missa Gaudeamus really changes the game in Josquin performance, and maybe in early music generally. The reason is that De Labyrintho sing the mass more expressively, with greater nuances of texture, colour and dynamics, than any other account of music by Josquin that I know, or of anyone else. It's not at all like you're eves-dropping on a ritual, it's more like you're listening to a concert in an audience.

It reminds me of Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue, about which I would say similar things.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 09:59:08 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 10:38:56 PM »


I fear that the personal impact of Labyrintho's M. Gaudeamus has been greater than I had anticipated, This recording of M. Malheur me bat from Peter Phillips and his Tallis singers is wonderful in every way save one. Great singing, well balanced and lively. But cold and brightly lit. And haven't Labyrintho taught is that Josquin was far from phlegmatic? And haven't they revealed how his music is best lit with chiaroscuro? I tried Clerks group in MMMB but I have to say I prefer The Tallis Scholars strength.

Oh well.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 10:44:00 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2015, 01:05:46 PM »


On the other hand, the recording of the M. L'Homme Armé s.v.m., on the disc above from Peter Philips and his crew, is anything but cold. This is one of the greats, I'm sure of it. Full of feeling, ideal balance of voices, rapt and energetic, fluid, focused and intense.
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kishnevi

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2015, 06:09:41 PM »


On the other hand, the recording of the M. L'Homme Armé s.v.m., on the disc above from Peter Philips and his crew, is anything but cold. This is one of the greats, I'm sure of it. Full of feeling, ideal balance of voices, rapt and energetic, fluid, focused and intense.

There is almost a generation between the two recordings:  L'Homme was recorded in 1989,  Malheur in 2009.  Presumably you are witnessing the change in how Phillips treats the music. 

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2015, 10:16:30 PM »


Another highly nuanced and expressive Josquin mass from De Labyrintho, this time M. Pange Lingue. The recording is hard to find in physical format (can anyone share it with me?), and the downloads are all very poor quality. Nevertheless this is such a revelatory nuanced performance it repays suffering the poor transfer. I'm listening to it through spotify and as far as I can see it has been rejected by high quality download services like Qobuz and googleplay.

What the Labyrintho approach lacks is strength - it's so artful and so poetic and so "conducted" that you lose sometimes the forcefulness of O'Donnel/Westminster or Janequin Ensemble. But  this recording like their M. Gaudeamus transforms expectations of what a Josequin mass should sound like.

Has anyone looked at the music of m. Pange Lingue? Am I right to think there are no canons?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 10:22:52 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2015, 08:27:03 AM »


The strange  thing about this M. Pange Lingue from Sei Voci and the kids from the Maîtrise singing school in France is the contrast between the parts for grown ups - taken one or two to a part - and the parts taken by the boys. It made me think of classical and romantic masses, where you have choir and soloists, things like Missa Solemnis.

Another thing I like is the range of feeling - I'd say at least as impressive in this mass as those other Italians, De Labyrintho, probably more impressive.  Listen, for example, to how sad the start of the credo sounds. Maybe doing Josquin with lots of feeling is an Italian thing, rather than something De Labaryntho have patented (or are Sei Voci French?)

Sound is fine: much much better than De Labyrintho on spotify.

The recording come with some AMAZING motets!!!!

On the U.S. Amazon there's a review dissing the children's choir their technique. But I'm not  bothered by any failing in that department.

You know, over the past few weeks I've listened to a lot of early masses and I keep thinking of Missa Solemnis, all that stuff you read about Beethoven studying Palestrina and possibly others. Maybe there really is a connection, I haven't listened to the Beethoven for a while.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 10:01:36 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Que

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2015, 08:55:20 AM »
I love that Sei Voci recording. I had the set of their Desprez recordings and found it wonderful.

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Drasko

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2015, 10:20:33 AM »


Another highly nuanced and expressive Josquin mass from De Labyrintho, this time M. Pange Lingua. The recording is hard to find in physical format (can anyone share it with me?)

I never knew this recording existed. If you happen to find the CD or decent quality rip I'd appreciate if you'd share it (and vice versa of course).



On the U.S. Amazon there's a review dissing the children's choir their technique. But I'm not  bothered by any failing in that department.


Well, the mushiness is pretty obvious, but I also find that the atmosphere the line-up creates is acceptable trade off. Wouldn't want it to be my only recording of the piece though.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2015, 09:54:25 PM »


Well, the mushiness is pretty obvious, but I also find that the atmosphere the line-up creates is acceptable trade off. Wouldn't want it to be my only recording of the piece though.

I don't feel the same about Sei Voci's M. Gaudeamus, especially in the  the canons.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2015, 05:32:30 AM »


The M. Pange Lingue here from Safford Cape's Pro Musica Antiqua is from the 1950s. it is as far as I can tell one voice to a part, and is very transparently and equally balanced. In terms of phrasing it's quite natural I think. The ficta are handled in a way which minimises dissonance, but it's so deeply felt that this is anything but a placid performance. The singing style is a bit dated. The transfer is fine.  I stumbled across it while listening to different performances of the credo on spotify.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 05:35:06 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Artem

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2015, 07:54:36 PM »
I've listened to these two disks today.




Herreweghe's recording is new to me and I only listened to it twice. Maybe it is to early to make a conclusion after only a few listened, but it didn't grab me yet.

Capella Pratensis' disk had been with me for a while now. All male group create a very nice sound. According to the liner notes, they were recorded singing in the circle, which is supposed to be more authentic.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2015, 10:47:53 PM »
I've listened to these two disks today.





Capella Pratensis' disk had been with me for a while now. All male group create a very nice sound. According to the liner notes, they were recorded singing in the circle, which is supposed to be more authentic.

For me, this recording is spoilt by the cathedral like ambience. Too much reverb.

I'd like to see Cappella Pratensis, but all their 2016 recitals is as far as I can see of  music I don't know, so I'm reluctant to travel to Belgium or Holland for it.
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Offline mjwal

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2015, 06:32:19 AM »
For me, this recording is spoilt by the cathedral like ambience. Too much reverb.

I'd like to see Cappella Pratensis, but all their 2016 recitals is as far as I can see of  music I don't know, so I'm reluctant to travel to Belgium or Holland for it.
I won't say "my favourite", because I only have this one recording of Ave Maris Stella, but A Sei Voci are magnificent in this, as they are in assorted shorter pieces included on the CD e.g. a marvellous Alma Redemptoris Mater.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2016, 01:43:12 PM »


The style here in this recording of motets by The Orlando Consort makes me think of harpsichord players like Chorzempa and Leonhardt. That's to say, that somehow they manage to be both very expressive and very controlled. I wish I could find recordings of the masses which were in this style.

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2016, 08:11:58 AM »


The mass, Sine Nomine, makes me think of Obrecht's Maria Zart and Malheur me Bat, because of the preponderance of imitative counterpoint and the sense of underlying unity and structural plan. It  seems less dependent for its impact on melody, though I could be wrong about that. The Tallis Sholars adapt their style accordingly, the way they sing here makes me think of their Obrecht.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 08:37:29 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2016, 04:22:10 PM »
... makes me think of harpsichord players like Chorzempa and Leonhardt. That's to say, that somehow they manage to be both very expressive and very controlled.

Very well put. and food for thought.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2016, 12:56:13 AM »
Very well put. and food for thought.

I think it's good that Orlando Consort have managed to preserve this expressive and controlled style through changes of line up. What makes me say that is their recent Voir Dit songs - it is exceptional IMO.
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