Artistic Music

[greg]

Dälek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9rs9PSG9qE

Quasimoto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEHRz_4ROLQ

Flying Lotus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6SXXx1Fu_4

A Tribe Called Quest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwA5YT2tFNU&feature=related

Dr. Octagon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjKHQeRSvjk

Madvillain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpaonSDPw7Y

cLOUDDEAD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIuzJqXuxIc

Prefuse 73:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odvKJdjZ9Nw&feature=related

Out of curiousity, are all of these rap?
I just listened to the first track so far, and that is a good example of what I'm talking about- quite avant-garde. Interesting to hear avant-garde rap for the first time (hard to find, I guess).

My understanding of "elite" is a very negative concept - something about "standing apart" on some faux criteria of social pseudo-superiority.

Is this what the question refers to, or have I missed the point?

It probably couldn't be explained in words, but it has nothing to do with "social superiority." The point is a musical one, which is unrelated.

[Ten thumbs]

I too am not sure about the label 'elite'. Most music is readily available to all. I'm not sure either that we can say that any of the given categories is more difficult to understand since all have been readily appreciated by ordinary people in the past. With many older people the barrier appears to be familiarity, i.e. why don't you play something that's got a tune (= a tune that I know)? Young people, I suspect, have a tendency to be wary of stepping outside the norm established by their peers.

[False_Dmitry]

It probably couldn't be explained in words, but it has nothing to do with "social superiority." The point is a musical one, which is unrelated.

I have never heard of "elite music" in my entire career in classical music.  It sounds loathsome.

[Walther von Stolzing]

Out of curiousity, are all of these rap?

Yeah, they all fit under the hip hop/rap spectrum.

[greg]

Haha, I'll have to look into more of that Prefuse 73.

[Josquin des Prez]

Why does anti-elitism always have to end up promoting and celebrating mediocrity? Is there anything more loathsome then the mundane?

[Scarpia]

It probably couldn't be explained in words, but it has nothing to do with "social superiority." The point is a musical one, which is unrelated.

You're trying to categorize certain genres as elite irrespective of the merit of any particular work within that genre.  Human ability is a constant.  It is possible to create something great in essentially any genre, although some genres support extended works and others restrict you to miniatures. 

This thread is all about you trying to present yourself as "elite" because you listen to "elite" music.  It would be in your interest to give it up.

[greg]

This thread is all about you trying to present yourself as "elite" because you listen to "elite" music.  It would be in your interest to give it up.

That's what you think. I don't listen to jazz, and I rank it #2, over rock and metal, which I also listen to. I can tell the difference between something I like that isn't "great" and something I don't like which is "great."

[False_Dmitry]

This thread is all about you trying to present yourself as "elite" because you listen to "elite" music.  It would be in your interest to give it up.

[Josquin des Prez]

This thread is all about you trying to present yourself as "elite" because you listen to "elite" music.  It would be in your interest to give it up.

Where as this comment is all about being a jackass. Keep your ad-hominem fallacies to yourself.

[Henk]

Greg, it's completely clear for me in what sense you make use of the term "elite". Maybe "civilized music" would have been a better word-choice.

I think there's in every musical genre an avant-garde and so it doesn't justice to rank a genre higher because it has an avant-garde. I notice that you didn't mention the genre "dance". It would be below pop. Besides, personally I rank rap even below dance, pop and rock make one genre imo and I would rank metal below pop. I think globally such an order can be made. But in each genre, of course, there's bad music and good music.

Now a short (auto-)biographic sketch of what different genres of music mean for me. For me pop music is emotionally connected to ordinary society and me living in it, with which I grew up. Jazz for me was a sort of ideal how life could be, a picture of the good life, as a way of living.  As with pop music it wasn't only about the music, but also about the atmosphere around it. With classical music I get loose almost completely from ordinary society, that is necessary imo to appreciate it fully, and it makes more civilized. Classical music for me, in opposition to pop music and jazz, is a realm in itself.

Henk

[greg]

Just ignore that guy ... but Greg ... you seem to have pretty adventurous tastes, just curious what keeps you from liking or even exploring any jazz?

Just haven't got around to much yet. 
I have listened to, you know, what is possibly the most well-known jazz album (Davis' Kind of Blue) and really liked it. Seeing how much there is to explore, don't worry- over time I'll be able to appreciate quite a bit of jazz, I bet.

Greg, it's completely clear for me in what sense you make use of the term "elite". Maybe "civilized music" would have been a better word-choice.

Close... but "civilized" wouldn't exactly describe the sound of chaotic 20th century music. I'll change it to "artistic" (closest description I can think of).

I think there's in every musical genre an avant-garde and so it doesn't justice to rank a genre higher because it has an avant-garde. I notice that you didn't mention the genre "dance". It would be below pop. Besides, personally I rank rap even below dance, pop and rock make one genre imo and I would rank metal below pop. I think globally such an order can be made. But in each genre, of course, there's bad music and good music.

You may be right- every genre has at least some sort of avant-garde. I'm thinking Josquin's model of a simple 1, 2, 3, might actually be the best. Besides classical and jazz, it's just mainly a matter of mainstream vs. non-mainstream, the latter being what I would describe as more "artistic".

Now a short (auto-)biographic sketch of what different genres of music mean for me. For me pop music is emotionally connected to ordinary society and me living in it, with which I grew up. Jazz for me was a sort of ideal how life could be, a picture of the good life, as a way of living.  As with pop music it wasn't only about the music, but also about the atmosphere around it. With classical music I get loose almost completely from ordinary society, that is necessary imo to appreciate it fully, and it makes more civilized. Classical music for me, in opposition to pop music and jazz, is a realm in itself.

Interesting.

[greg]

So, more like this:

Most artistic musical genres:
1. Classical
2. Jazz
3. Other


Within any other genre (aka, #3), usually more artistic music tends to be less accessible to the average person, therefore less likely to be popular and played on the radio. This does not equal *"good" or "bad," just a style that comes from a specific attitude towards writing music.


*-although this is debatable... I know that even if I listen to, say, the dullest Handel piece I've ever heard, it's artistic worth is far beyond the newest hit pop song.

And my post that contains zero % challopsing is patently ignored.

I had to look that word up... 
Yes, they have different compositional aims. This thread is basically supposed to categorize music with a certain aim.

[False_Dmitry]

This navel-gazing thread has gone from bad to worse.

I'm out of here, and you can "challopse" (HA!) to your heart's content!

[Scarpia]

So, more like this:

Most artistic musical genres:
1. Classical
2. Jazz
3. Other


Within any other genre (aka, #3), usually more artistic music tends to be less accessible to the average person, therefore less likely to be popular and played on the radio. This does not equal *"good" or "bad," just a style that comes from a specific attitude towards writing music.


*-although this is debatable... I know that even if I listen to, say, the dullest Handel piece I've ever heard, it's artistic worth is far beyond the newest hit pop song.


I had to look that word up... 
Yes, they have different compositional aims. This thread is basically supposed to categorize music with a certain aim.

Maybe we can rank threads for value as well

* threads about different pieces of music
* threads about different recordings
* threads about performers
* threads about Utopian political systems
* threads about which religion is superior
* threads about which genre of music is most artistic (or elite)

[Josquin des Prez]

Modern electric Jazz is mostly junk. Jazz as an art form reached its peak somewhere during the 60s and by the 70s was already on a decline.

[Antoine Marchand]

Modern electric Jazz is mostly junk. Jazz as an art form reached its peak somewhere during the 60s and by the 70s was already on a decline.

"Genius" and "Decadence" are really your very favorite subjects, JdP. You see them everywhere!

I won't ask if Spengler and Toynbee are among your favorite authors. 

[Franco]

Modern electric Jazz is mostly junk. Jazz as an art form reached its peak somewhere during the 60s and by the 70s was already on a decline.

I have not been a fan of most fusion (electric jazz), although the '70s Miles, Weather Report and early Return to Forever recordings are all first rate.  The Mahavishnu Orchestra were good, but their music is generally too "muscular" for my tastes, as is most of the music that followed in its wake. 

I tend to prefer acoustic music from all genres to electric instrumentation, that is true whether it is jazz or classical.

But this is merely my own taste and I totally understand that the musicians that have been cited are master musicians and create music at a very high level.  It is just not a kind that I prefer to listen to much.

[Franco]

Yea but no one cares Franco ... I was talking to Greg who plays the electric guitar

And I was responding to JdP (not you or Greg) - which could have been deduced since I quoted his comment.  I don't know if he cares or not, but everyone's comments on any thread are for general  consumption.  Or do you aspire to act as a GMG Forum Nanny?

[greg]

Yea .. it took me awhile to find my way into jazz as well, since you play the electric guitar yourself Greg ... perhaps exploring the more modern electric jazz will be your ticket in... groups like Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Return to Forever, Tribal Tech ...or exceptional guitarists that combine the brains of jazz with the fire & balls of rock (or metal)...like Allan Holdsworth, Scott Henderson, John McLaughlin, Wayne Krantz & others ... since you play, being exposed to the best of electric jazz, and/or electric jazz guitarists (who use a rock sound so well) may open up many creative doors for you ...

http://www.abstractlogix.com/
http://www.audiophileimports.com/

Well, well, well... thanks for the recommendations. 
I will definitely try to listen to this stuff- and you're right, it may provide some new inspiration for me, which is always a good thing.