Baton-less Conductors

[Octo_Russ]

I saw a YouTube video recently of Valery Gergiev conducting without a baton, here's the YouTube video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwgIR-1OcIo

Now i must say that Gergiev does in fact use a baton too, i think even Bernstein tried to go baton-less for a while, here's another YouTube video of Gergiev conducting with a tiny stick, now what's the point of that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMzpf-lPlVo


It was interesting, baton-less Conductors must be a small minority from what i've seen, but what's the pros and cons of it?.

[Dana]

    There are typically two reasons to conduct sans a baton - either your going for a historically informed approach ("Mozart never used a baton!"), or you're conducting something expressive, and don't want the point of the stick getting in the way of your expressiveness. And then there are conductors out there who simply do away with the baton just because it cramps their style - this is common among conductors who are primarily chorusmasters, because choirs don't like batons, so they don't use them in front of their usual ensemble anyways.

    The trouble with conducting batonless, though, is that I've never actually seen someone teach how to conduct batonless - the teachers just take the stick away and say go. Because of this, they use the same motions as before, but without the clarifying point of the baton. Additionally, since the teacher rarely shows the conductor how to use his hands and fingers independently of the baton, they never gain the expressivity that they're going for by removing the baton in the first place. This results in bland, detailless conducting that doesn't impart much information to the orchestra.

    For sure, many of the best conductors I've had have great expressive control over their hands. Overall, I'd say that the pros - increased connection with the orchestra - outweigh the cons - increased risk of vagueness. But that only works out for the best conductors out there, and while everyone wants to be the best, few are.

[Cato]

Leopold Bunny eschewed batons as especially nasty! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPCUDAF0bVY&feature=related

Skip to the 4:00 minute section for the relevant sequence!

Or here for a 3 minute version!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX1ljYx3g3k&feature=related

[Dana]

I've been waiting for someone to post that video

[Cato]

Leopold Bunny eschewed batons as especially nasty! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPCUDAF0bVY&feature=related

Skip to the 4:00 minute section for the relevant sequence!

Or here for a 3 minute version!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX1ljYx3g3k&feature=related

It was the first thing I thought of, when I saw the topic!   0:)

In comparison to the crappy cartoons populating Saturday morning today (preachy and tragically unfunny), it is sad.  But Bugs Bunny will rawk for a very long time!

[Cato]

It was interesting, baton-less Conductors must be a small minority from what i've seen, but what's the pros and cons of it?.

The con is that it is harder perhaps to see at whom the conductor is pointing for a cue.

I have never played in an orchestra, so perhaps a musician with that experience can tell us.

[Franco]

Baton-less, but Boulez must have his shades.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17-pJZ9nEg

[karlhenning]

It was the first thing I thought of, when I saw the topic!   0:)

In comparison to the crappy cartoons populating Saturday morning today (preachy and tragically unfunny), it is sad.  But Bugs Bunny will rawk for a very long time!

Long-Haired Hare is always good!

[Scarpia]

Baton-less, but Boulez must have his shades.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17-pJZ9nEg

Before he had developed the comb-over.

[karlhenning]

There, he makes even conducting without a baton look rather wooden.

[DarkAngel]

Vast majority of conductors use wand/baton, gives more accentuation to hand movement
especially from greater distance, easier to express finer movements........my theory.

Facial expression and eye movements also used to great effect, if you watch many orchestral DVDs this is very evident during performance with close-ups of conductor from band's perspective

A couple exceptions that comes to mind are Kondrashin, Harnoncourt along with Boulez using hands only

[DarkAngel]

Now i must say that Gergiev does in fact use a baton too, i think even Bernstein tried to go baton-less for a while, here's another YouTube video of Gergiev conducting with a tiny stick, now what's the point of that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMzpf-lPlVo

That is very strange...........looks like a big toothpick 

Most batons are 13-16 inches long with main difference being hand/palm grip shape

[springrite]

I conducted without a baton, probably because I started conducting choruses. Later when I did conduct an orchestra, they tell me the baton confused the heck out of them. When I put it away it worked better.

[Bogey]

I believe I have seen clips of HvK with and without a baton.

[Brahmsian]

When I conduct at home, it is sans baton.

[knight66]

Perhaps it depends where you come from; but it is incorrect to suggest that universally chorus masters do not generally use a baton. I have known a fair few, who work at the top of the profession, and some used a baton, others did not. The two I knew best from having worked with them a lot switched back and forth.

Some conductors use the point of the baton as the point of the beat, others still use the hand holding the baton as communicating the point of the beat.

Many, even great conductors use both hands in mirror image to one another, though in theory one should be used to indicate the beat and the other to bring players in and for expression. But the conductor can communicate with the body, eyes, eyebrows, shoulders and mouth as well as the hands, arms and through the baton.

Boult used an exceptionally long batton which hardly moved, despite which he produced very disciplined performances.

Mike

[Scarpia]

Isn't there a story about how Solti stabbed himself in the head with his own baton while conducting?  Not surprising, in view of some of the video footage in that BBC video, The Golden Ring.

Also, I seem to remember a story involving Toscanini.  He broke his baton, or neglected to bring it to rehearsal and said something to the effect that "I guess I'll have to conduct with my hands like that idiot Stokowski."

[Brahmsian]

Lully wishes he hadn't conducted with a baton. 

[jochanaan]

As a player, I find myself more often than not watching the conductor's hands, not the baton.  The few times I've conducted, I preferred not to use a baton; it allows my hand to relax and show the music's character, not just the tempo.

Among historical conductors, Klemperer, Stokowski (famously), and (for a long time) Ormandy used no batons.

But on the other hand, Adrian Boult's book about conducting is called The Point of the Stick.  He, Fritz Reiner, and Artur Nikisch were famous for moving their batons, and themselves, very little.  That may be one reason their performances came across as "disciplined;" the orchestra has to watch that tiny beat very closely...   (I've seen a Reiner video, though, and Reiner's baton had ample amplitude.  )

[MishaK]

Isn't there a story about how Solti stabbed himself in the head with his own baton while conducting?  Not surprising, in view of some of the video footage in that BBC video, The Golden Ring.

Yes, he punctured his skin dangerously close to his temple during one opera performance, I don't remember what the opera was.