Heinz Holliger,... Murderer!!

[snyprrr]

Has anyone heard Holligers SQ2, on a 2CD Zehetmair Quartet release, including LvB, Bruckner, and Hartmann?

[snyprrr]

'Induulche'n (ECM)

This is the latest (though ageing) Holliger disc from ECM to feature a complete program of his works. Here we have two chamber works (one, a percussion concerto), and two song cycles.

I find Holliger to be the most refined, and highest ranking member of the 'Classic Generation' to be still with us. He just keeps putting out what amounts to one of the most experimental bodies of work ever, and his quality never seems to flag. Though I am no great fan of 'classical' singing, the way Holliger uses the voice blends the timbre into the texture of the piece gives me the kind of pleasure I may not get from other Masters of Song.

I don't have the CD in front of me- the piece for female and chamber ensemble reminds quite a bit of Aperghis, as does a lot of this album. There's a lot of great tortured sounds coming from the group, and I'd hold this cycle up against any modern cycle in terms of overall quality. I'm not comparing it to Birtwistle's 'Pulse Shadows', but I thought it had that kind of stature.

The other vocal piece, the 'Induulchen' (I believe), is for countertenor and horn!- I think influenced by K. Huber's work?- and this is as wild as you'd want. Frankly, this seems to be the state of the art of what's going on these days: masterpieces for the most seemingly mismatched participants. Here it works beautifully, very complex, nice textures.

If you were not totally convinced by the 'Alb Cher'(?) disc on ECM, with two long vocal cycles veering between the usual HardAvant, and more Tyrolean fare- maybe this set is for you. I'm certainly convinced that these two cycles are worth some discussion here. (I know the disc can be expensive)

The 'Toronto Exercises' are four short movements highlighting a specific process, and are entertaining enough as they are. The final chamber concerto for percussion, named after the coffee shop it was conceived in (I forget)- is, again, very much at home sounding like the tortured and squeezed home-made percussion of Aperghis's chamber works. With some echoes too of the classic Xenakis of 'Psappha', this is quite a snappy little concerto of 12 minutes. There's a lot of odd sounds coming from everywhere- and if there's one thing Holliger seems to do better than Lachenmann or Sciarrino is that he is able to make the humor come out in all this noodling and doodling. But, he's also quite serious- and he can deliver the goods like no one else.

This is some classy stuff here. If you want to put on your robe and sip something expensive, and feel really smart, this disc might be for you! Oh, the luxury of it all!

[Mandryka]

Someone's just given me a copy of the Scardanelli-Zyklus, and I'd like to listen to it, but as usual I'm without a text -- or even an indication of the Holderin poems he used. That bothers me a lot, I'm not really a "pure music" person, especially when someone's singing.  Can anyone help?

Just searching on the web for a text I found this intersting French language blog

http://www.ensembleinter.com/accents-online/?p=6048

I'm interested in Bach and Grisey so this comment sent me rushing to hear a certain Bach cantata

Le choral de Bach, « Komm, o Tod, du Schlafes Bruder » [« Viens, ô trépas, toi le frère du sommeil »], s'est glissé à l'intérieur des sonorités spectrales des cordes, message crypté qui mêle l'idée du salut à celle du renoncement, celle d'émergence à celle de disparition. D'emblée, Holliger réalise ce qui est au centre de son esthétique, et que Celan a su exprimer en ces mots : « Sprich – Doch scheide das Nein nicht vom Ja[2] » [« Parle – Mais ne sépare le non du oui »]. Les « fleurs de givres » ont leurs racines « en l'air » : « In der Luft, da bleibt deine Wurzel, da, in der Luft » [« En l'air, là reste ta racine, là, en l'air[3] »].

Paul Celan is a completely new name for me I think.

[ritter]

Paul Celan is a completely new name for me I think.

Well, Celan's poetry is extremely desolate in outlook, but very impressive...

I don't know if you care much for Harrison Birtwistle, Mandryka (I do like his music very much), but he has composed music on Celan (translated into English). Boulez recorded the Three settings of Celan in this CD:

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The settings were also incorporated into the larger work Pulse shadows, which was recorded by the Arditti Quartet on Teldec:

[asin]B000050KFO[/asin]

I think both these CDs are highly recommendable!

Here's a snippet of a Celan setting:

http://www.youtube.com/v/8Z1TqldcS28

Getting back on-topic, Scardanelli-Zyklus is a work I've been intending to explore for some time, with a mixture of interest and trepidation... One of these days...

[snyprrr]

Someone's just given me a copy of the Scardanelli-Zyklus, and I'd like to listen to it, but as usual I'm without a text -- or even an indication of the Holderin poems he used. That bothers me a lot, I'm not really a "pure music" person, especially when someone's singing.  Can anyone help?

Just searching on the web for a text I found this intersting French language blog

http://www.ensembleinter.com/accents-online/?p=6048

I'm interested in Bach and Grisey so this comment sent me rushing to hear a certain Bach cantata

Paul Celan is a completely new name for me I think.

Was it you who was going to tell us how Great SQ 2 is? please do!

No.1 is truly one of the Most... Unbelievable... WoooW!... it's like Real Process Music, written out... painstakingly... torture porn?... not like Zorn, but Holliger still intends us to feel the pain...

[Mandryka]

Was it you who was going to tell us how Great SQ 2 is? please do!

There's a huge range of moods. There are some bear wacky sounds, produced no doubt by the scordatura. It's a journey thing like a traditional quartet. The ending is spiritual and consoling and mystical, the quatert have to sing as they play - the end reminds me of the final bars of Carter's 4th quartet.  Although there are times when you hear music like Carter and Bartok, it's more modern than Bartok and more unconventional effects than Carter.

Does anyone have Holliger's programme notes? Does anyone know what the poems in the score are?

First time I've written the word "bear" like that. I bet it doesn't even exist in American English. Interesting how language changes.

[snyprrr]

There's a huge range of moods. There are some bear wacky sounds, produced no doubt by the scordatura. It's a journey thing like a traditional quartet. The ending is spiritual and consoling and mystical, the quatert have to sing as they play - the end reminds me of the final bars of Carter's 4th quartet.  Although there are times when you hear music like Carter and Bartok, it's more modern than Bartok and more unconventional effects than Carter.

Does anyone have Holliger's programme notes? Does anyone know what the poems in the score are?

First time I've written the word "bear" like that. I bet it doesn't even exist in American English. Interesting how language changes.

"singing at the end"- some of the most dreaded words I hear!!- I'm sure it's not too bad- surely it's well integrated- I ALWAYS gets me some nervous when there's singing in my quartet!! However, your description certainly gets the juices flowing. Carter + Bartok can't be all bad...

Just curiously, how does it open?- and you can tell me as broadly as you like so as not to give anything away- if it's "too cool" just say, Nope, can't tell ya!!

[Mandryka]

"singing at the end"- some of the most dreaded words I hear!!- I'm sure it's not too bad- surely it's well integrated- I ALWAYS gets me some nervous when there's singing in my quartet!! However, your description certainly gets the juices flowing. Carter + Bartok can't be all bad...

Just curiously, how does it open?- and you can tell me as broadly as you like so as not to give anything away- if it's "too cool" just say, Nope, can't tell ya!!

It opens like spiky Carter, and then glides into some slippery slithery type music. And it closes with the humming and in the middle there's something like Bartok's night music. 

Now listen to the fucking CD.

http://classical-music-online.net/downloads/?file_id=94870

[Mandryka]

Well, Celan's poetry is extremely desolate in outlook, but very impressive...

I don't know if you care much for Harrison Birtwistle, Mandryka (I do like his music very much), but he has composed music on Celan (translated into English). Boulez recorded the Three settings of Celan in this CD:

[asin]B000001GM9[/asin]

The settings were also incorporated into the larger work Pulse shadows, which was recorded by the Arditti Quartet on Teldec:

[asin]B000050KFO[/asin]

I think both these CDs are highly recommendable!

Here's a snippet of a Celan setting:

http://www.youtube.com/v/8Z1TqldcS28

Getting back on-topic, Scardanelli-Zyklus is a work I've been intending to explore for some time, with a mixture of interest and trepidation... One of these days...

I have now listened to it once without the text, it is not at all intimidating, it's accessible in the way Prometeo is accessible, in fact it reminds me of late Nono a lot. I like late Nono. The recording I have is from a concert last week, it's here, I have it in good sound though - from a digital radio broadcast.

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/world-premiere-heinz-holligers-scardanelli-zyklus/

I will listen to those Birtwistle pieces.

[petrarch]

I have now listened to it once without the text, it is not at all intimidating, it's accessible in the way Prometeo is accessible, in fact it reminds me of late Nono a lot. I like late Nono. The recording I have is from a concert last week, it's here, I have it in good sound though - from a digital radio broadcast.

I have the Atelier Schola Cantorum release, which I like a lot (i've written about it previously). It has a thick booklet, not easy to scan. Is there anything specific you would like from it?

[Mandryka]

I have the Atelier Schola Cantorum release, which I like a lot (i've written about it previously). It has a thick booklet, not easy to scan. Is there anything specific you would like from it?

Well, I just want to be able to follow the text in English or French as the music is playing.

[petrarch]

Well, I just want to be able to follow the text in English or French as the music is playing.

Unfortunately, the booklet has the sung text only in german. Perhaps the release on ECM contains a translation.

[ritter]

Well, I just want to be able to follow the text in English or French as the music is playing.

As I mentioned above, I still have not listened to this composition. I saw it in Munich the other day (the ECM version), but at way too high a price.

If you can find out which texts by Hölderlin were set by Holliger, then perhaps you can find hem on the web (with English translation). Just thinking...

Regards,

[Mandryka]

[asin]B000050KFO[/asin]

. . .  highly recommendable!

A tremendous and immediately attractive piece of music, so thanks for drawing my attention to it.

[snyprrr]

There's a huge range of moods. There are some bear wacky sounds, produced no doubt by the scordatura. It's a journey thing like a traditional quartet. The ending is spiritual and consoling and mystical, the quatert have to sing as they play - the end reminds me of the final bars of Carter's 4th quartet.  Although there are times when you hear music like Carter and Bartok, it's more modern than Bartok and more unconventional effects than Carter.

Does anyone have Holliger's programme notes? Does anyone know what the poems in the score are?

First time I've written the word "bear" like that. I bet it doesn't even exist in American English. Interesting how language changes.

I've just listened twice to this new Holliger SQ- yes, it opens like spiky Carter, dedicated to Carter, does have some Carter, Xenakis, Zorn, Holliger- those "bear wacky"- or rather "scary spectral horse" sounds early on were quite impressive.

There's a lot of 'Scardinelli' type dreay "ennui" sounds that Holliger is so fond of, but I like it better here in the SQ guise- it's somewhat like Xenakis's stochastic music, very random the same thing going round and round randomly-

But, Holliger knows how to put it all together- and yes, the humming/singing was rather a nice closing touch, very appropriate actually.

Yes, a "world weary" SQ- "twilight of the gods" everything is "running down"- exhaustion is one of his fav themes.


So it did remind if SQ 1, but is much more controlled, but has much of the same elements. It really does sound like Holliger, huh!

I like Holliger's complexity- perhaps as opposed to Ferneyhough (also like of course).

[nathanb]

I believe I have ever available recording of Holliger's compositions on ECM.

That and that Grammont Portrait thing and the Siebengesang/Magische Tanze thingy. Oh and "What Where?" and "Come And Go".

His violin concerto is insanely good...

[snyprrr]

I believe I have ever available recording of Holliger's compositions on ECM.

That and that Grammont Portrait thing and the Siebengesang/Magische Tanze thingy. Oh and "What Where?" and "Come And Go".

His violin concerto is insanely good...

i have noticed the pattern, though, recently, of him using that micro-tonal ennui sound in every work... the sort or aleatoric sections that sound like grey mush. I heard a lot of that in the Violin Concerto... also in the 'Scardinelli Cycle'...

However, I have enjoyed all the Holliger I've heard (have you the wind quintet 'h'?)- it's on some "Deutschland" RCA disc, I believe... or the 'Psalm'?). The 1st String Quartet is all I really need...

Have you the Genuin label with the 'Partita' and 'Romancendres'? The sound is much more upfront than the ECM...


I just like Holliger all around... though, he is quite "noctural"... he's one of the few who can reach into the piano at just.the.right.time., and not overdo effects, even though he uses all of them.



I know I've been excusing myself a lot lately due to grog and coffee... well, I'm doing it now, ha!!

[nathanb]

i have noticed the pattern, though, recently, of him using that micro-tonal ennui sound in every work... the sort or aleatoric sections that sound like grey mush. I heard a lot of that in the Violin Concerto... also in the 'Scardinelli Cycle'...

However, I have enjoyed all the Holliger I've heard (have you the wind quintet 'h'?)- it's on some "Deutschland" RCA disc, I believe... or the 'Psalm'?). The 1st String Quartet is all I really need...

Have you the Genuin label with the 'Partita' and 'Romancendres'? The sound is much more upfront than the ECM...


I just like Holliger all around... though, he is quite "noctural"... he's one of the few who can reach into the piano at just.the.right.time., and not overdo effects, even though he uses all of them.



I know I've been excusing myself a lot lately due to grog and coffee... well, I'm doing it now, ha!!

I want to get a hold of some mp3s of the Psalm and the Dona Nobis Pacem. His earlier sound is quite wonderful, based on Atembogen, Pneuma, etc... Haven't heard the piano/wind quintet yet either. I was listening to the Grammont Portrait again last night because of you, and Atembogen, with its aura of decay, gave me them goosebumps.

I've seen that Genuin disc around, and it was tempting, but I always just fell back on most of those works on ECM. But perhaps I'll reconsider that now

I kind of like the Violin Concerto because it doesn't put virtuosity at the forefront. The violinist bows and plucks away, but he doesn't completely dominate the foreground. Lots of cimbalom or w/e it is. Kind of like the little Zimmermann cello concerto; took me a while to be sure it was, in fact, a concerto for cello.

Agreed on all counts, really

[Scion7]

"This is the part of Sprockets where we dance!"

[vers la flamme]

I just heard the debut recording of Holliger's String Quartet last week, tried to find it, couldn't, and got the ECM Lieder ohne Worte disc instead. Wow, wow; this is such good music, I'm smitten. What is his music really all about? I can't tell, but among avant-garde composers of his era and nationality, he seems to have an "old soul".

Where to next from here? I'm still looking for the string quartet, I think it's out on Wergo, but there is a String Quartet No.2 with the Zehetmair Quartett that I'd like to get as well (another ECM).

Can anyone explain the "death of music" talk in the OP? I haven't read the booklet with my CD yet.

Oh, and he's a damn fine oboist, but this is neither time nor place for that talk.

Anyone listening to Holliger lately? No posts in this thread in 4+ years seems to suggest otherwise but maybe...