Schoenberg vs Berg vs Webern

[abidoful]

Berg wrote an operatic masterpiece, Schönberg didn't (wasn't Moses und Aron left unfinished???), that's all.

[False_Dmitry]

Berg wrote an operatic masterpiece, Schönberg didn't (wasn't Moses und Aron left unfinished???), that's all.

Berg wrote TWO operatic masterpieces   And Schönberg didn't.

[abidoful]

Berg wrote TWO operatic masterpieces  

I'm not so sure about that

[False_Dmitry]

I'm not so sure about that

OK, well maybe Berg wrote 1.85 operatic masterpieces, and Cerha wrote 0.15 of an operatic masterpiece

[abidoful]

OK, well maybe Berg wrote 1.85 operatic masterpieces, and Cerha wrote 0.15 of an operatic masterpiece

Yeah, something like that ----Though i've never heard of Cerha

[False_Dmitry]

Yeah, something like that ----Though i've never heard of Cerha

Berg left LULU unfinished at his death - there are differing explanations, the most likely is connected with his own family circumstances and their possible parallel in the opera.  The composer Cerha wrote the most frequently-performed completion of the opera, although it's not the only one that has been made.

[Franco]

These composers are the three most important 20th century voices for me.  I have been reading various things about each one, and do not find it possible to say I consider this one more important, better, greater, etc., they are sufficiently different and focus on different aspects of using the composition with 12 tones that Schoenberg advocated that they remain distinct and of equal status in my eyes. 

Each has written at least one work that I could call my favorite.

[abidoful]

The composer Cerha wrote the most frequently-performed completion of the opera, although it's not the only one that has been made.

Aaah----so that's who he is

[Sergeant Rock]

I love all three composers. What sways me are the late Romantic monsters of Schönberg: Gurrelieder, Pelleas und Melisande, the opus 7 and 10 Quartets. Even if it comes down to opera, Schönberg still wins: I enjoy listening to Moses und Aron more than Lulu and Wozzeck, two operas that always leave me feeling queasy and depressed.

Sarge

[False_Dmitry]

Lulu and Wozzeck, two operas that always leave me feeling queasy and depressed.

Which is exactly the composer's intention 

[Sergeant Rock]

Which is exactly the composer's intention 

And he succeeds admirably.

Sarge

[(poco) Sforzando]

Berg left LULU unfinished at his death - there are differing explanations, the most likely is connected with his own family circumstances and their possible parallel in the opera.  The composer Cerha wrote the most frequently-performed completion of the opera, although it's not the only one that has been made.

What other completion is there? First I've ever heard of this.

Since Berg's sketches provide a nearly complete third act in short score, much of Cerha's work consisted of orchestration. And even here he had the benefit of such passages as Berg used in the Lulu Suite.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Opera houses and concert halls are places where music is performed.  Audiences attend these performances.  It was where Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Busoni and Co all intended their work to be heard.   To dismiss this as "nonsense" is, I'm afraid, a fundamental misunderstanding of classical music.

When was the last time MOSES & AARON was produced at the Met, or Covent Garden?  And when did they last do LULU or WOZZECK, by comparison?

Moses was last performed at the Met in 2003 (to great audience acclaim), Wozzeck in 2006, Lulu this past season. I don't have statistics for Covent Garden.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Berg wrote an operatic masterpiece, Schönberg didn't (wasn't Moses und Aron left unfinished???), that's all.

Schoenberg finished two acts of Moses and wrote a libretto for a disproportionately short third act in which Moses triumphed over a dead Aron. But although he tried several times, he could never find the music for this act. He eventually consented to having the first two acts performed as a whole.

[False_Dmitry]

What other completion is there? First I've ever heard of this.

Erwin Stein made a completed version of Act III in Vocal Score format, at the urging on Berg's widow, and with her collaboration on access to the sketches.  She then took Stein's completed vocal score to Schoenberg in the hope that he would complete the orchestration.  AS accepted the task - but for unclear reasons did not complete it, creating a hiatus in the process of bringing the complete work to the stage.  Helene Berg would not allow anyone other than Schoenberg to touch the score - so it went incomplete for 40 years, and was performed and even recorded incomplete.

I agree that it's essential unperformable, lacking an orchestration - but Stein's completion came first. Cerha didn't make use of it, but instead returned to Berg's sketches to make his own - marginally different - completion. 

A few years ago I heard a very informative programme on BBC Radio 3 about the completion, presented by David Owen Norris (if I recall correctly)... suggesting that Helene Berg had personal reasons for denying access to the sketches to others, connecting with somehow protecting her husband's personal reputation. 

[Mirror Image]

Overall, Schoenberg for me. My favorite 2nd Viennese works are Webern's Passacaglia and Berg's 3 Pieces, but after that, they just don't do as much for me as Schoenberg does.

I do love the Romantic scores of Schoenberg and Webern. Webern's Im Sommerwind is just so damn good. I also enjoy Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht, Chamber Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2, Gurrelieder...I guess I like Schoenberg more than I let on.

[abidoful]

I do love the Romantic scores of Schoenberg and Webern. Webern's Im Sommerwind is just so damn good. I also enjoy Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht, Chamber Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2, Gurrelieder...I guess I like Schoenberg more than I let on.

Schönberg has always fascinated me as the turn-of the 19th/20th century composer, who in his own work was a bridge from late romantisicm to expressionism.

Webern has a more minor fascination to me, and Berg is the sort of a composer who composed nothing but masterpieces.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Erwin Stein made a completed version of Act III in Vocal Score format, at the urging on Berg's widow, and with her collaboration on access to the sketches.  She then took Stein's completed vocal score to Schoenberg in the hope that he would complete the orchestration.  AS accepted the task - but for unclear reasons did not complete it, creating a hiatus in the process of bringing the complete work to the stage.  Helene Berg would not allow anyone other than Schoenberg to touch the score - so it went incomplete for 40 years, and was performed and even recorded incomplete.

I agree that it's essential unperformable, lacking an orchestration - but Stein's completion came first. Cerha didn't make use of it, but instead returned to Berg's sketches to make his own - marginally different - completion. 

A few years ago I heard a very informative programme on BBC Radio 3 about the completion, presented by David Owen Norris (if I recall correctly)... suggesting that Helene Berg had personal reasons for denying access to the sketches to others, connecting with somehow protecting her husband's personal reputation.

I assumed you meant a completed orchestration. I know Stein did a vocal score.

[MDL]

Talking about Schoenberg, Berg and Webern, Simon Rattle and the Berlin Phil, oops, sorry, the Berliner Philharmoniker, are playing what looks like a pretty stunning concert on Saturday 4th September.


Wagner Parsifal – Prelude (Act 1) (13 mins)
R. Strauss Four Last Songs (22 mins)
interval
Webern Six Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6 (12 mins)
Schoenberg Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16 - 1909 version (16 mins)
Berg Three Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6 (21 mins)
Karita Mattila soprano
Berliner Philharmoniker
Sir Simon Rattle conductor


Get a load of that! The second half is an unadulterated, undiluted Second Viennese School bonanza. And no soft options; no Im Sommerwind, no Verklarte Nacht, no Berg Violin Concerto! No, it's all real hard-core, in-your-face, guns-ablazing expressionistic nightmares. How will we cope?!

For some reason, I'm up in the gods in the circle. I honestly can't remember if I chose to sit there to save money or if all the good seats in the stalls had sold out, but having sat up there recently for the first time in well over a decade, I've been painfully reminded why I stopped sitting up there in the first place; the acoustics are bloody awful. The rustling and shuffling of my neighbours was far more audible than Gergiev conducting Mahler.

Oh, well, I can always listen again on BBC iPlayer.

I'm looking forward to hearing the gasps of horror from the assembled Henrys and Henriettas who clog up the Proms (particularly when a big-name band is playing) when Rattle unleashes Schoenberg upon their unsuspecting ears. "Quentin darling, where's the bit I can sing along to?"

I'm slightly concerned that having the Webern and Berg together, two of the all-time greatest downers ever conceived, might be a bit much; how much death and catastrophe can one take before the nervous giggles set in? Well, I'm about to find out, I suppose.

[False_Dmitry]

I'm looking forward to hearing the gasps of horror from the assembled Henrys and Henriettas who clog up the Proms

You're assuming they'll actually stay for the second half, then?   

I think you'll see the Nigels and Cassandras trooping off down Exhibition Road once the Strauss is over