Crappy Taste--Period

[Guido]

I hate being reasonable but one cannot generalize.

Usually by pop one means the more degraded and commercialized forms of popular music. And it is hard to believe anyone who is into Michael Jackson or Britney Spears or French "variete" could have any understanding of the complexities of a Bach or of a Stravinsky. But then, there is a French movie maker called Francois Reichenbach, who made films on Bach and Stravinsky and won an Oscar for a documentary on Arthur Rubinstein, who also made films on Mireille Mathieu and Johnny Halliday and Patrice Juvet.

Is there anything in rap that can interest a serious classical music lover? That is to be doubted. But then, Christoph Von Dohnanyi in an interview somewhere said in a Democracy one must be interested in popular forms and went on to defend Rap (his argument was more political than musical, however, and his defense of rap did not go beyond reminding us RAP stands for rhythm and poetry, without getting into the issue of whether the poetry is any good and the rhythms satisfying to those who can follow Stravinsky and Ligeti)

Jazz is a form of popular music that was despised by Messiaen and Boulez but admired by many composers from Stravinsky to Dutilleux.

Most pop strikes me as entertainment for teen agers and therefore something to be outgrown, as one outgrows cartoons and comic books. And I suspect those who have been raised on cartoons and pop but then grown into Bach and Jane Austen probably regret they weren't raised on more substantial fare, as the simple minded stuff is no better a preparation for the fine arts than junk food is for "gourmet" (I hate that term!) dining.  Taste like food itself is easier spoiled than acquired.

Most of this is completely fatuous. I may not like or listen to much pop music but it remains the only music that many people listen to and they draw real meaning and enjoyment from it, even many very intellectual people. It's not successful because its bad. I think its interesting to think about why it is so vastly popular and successful, even if it is not as great "as music" per se as Bach. And lets also not forget that pop music is not a monolith, as classical music isnt either - there's lots of different artists with different concerns, writing and performing music in a whole panopoly of ways, and people strongly identify with some, and not at all with others - this could equally be said of classical music.

As I say pop music does very little for me 95% of the time, except for dancing - really I think that is one of it's main attractions. Surely we don't need to go into this though - we've all experienced this and what significances it might have physically for us...

[mc ukrneal]

I'm curious why we need to make judgments about people based on what music they like.  It just divides us.

[Teresa]

The record series with a fair claim to be the the greatest American music ever played, Louis Armstrong and his Hot Five and Seven, was pure pop when it first came out.

This is very true, Armstrong was very popular.  Also there was Tin Pan Alley which manufactured jazzy popular and dance music and some of it's composers are NOW considered classical composers, such as Joplin and Gershwin. 

"Initially Tin Pan Alley specialized in melodramatic ballads and comic novelty songs, but it embraced the newly popular styles of the cakewalk and ragtime music. Later on jazz and blues were incorporated, although less completely, as Tin Pan Alley was oriented towards producing songs that amateur singers or small town bands could perform from printed music. Since improvisation, blue notes, and other characteristics of jazz and blues could not be captured in conventional printed notation, Tin Pan Alley manufactured jazzy and bluesy pop-songs and dance numbers. Much of the public in the late 1910 and the 1920s did not know the difference between these commercial products and authentic jazz and blues."

Leading Tin Pan Alley composers and lyricists include:
Milton Ager
Thomas S. Allen
Ernest Ball
Irving Berlin
Shelton Brooks
Nacio Herb Brown
Irving Caesar
Hoagy Carmichael
George M. Cohan
Con Conrad
J. Fred Coots
Buddy DeSylva
Walter Donaldson
Paul Dresser
Dave Dreyer
Al Dubin
Dorothy Fields
Ted Fio Rito
Max Freedman
Cliff Friend
George Gershwin
Ira Gershwin
Charles K. Harris
James P. Johnson
Isham Jones
Scott Joplin
Gus Kahn
Jerome Kern
Al Lewis
Sam M. Lewis
F.W Meacham
Johnny Mercer
Theodora Morse
Ethelbert Nevin
Bernice Petkere
Maceo Pinkard
Lew Pollack
Cole Porter
Andy Razaf
Harry Ruby
Al Sherman
Lou Singer
Ted Snyder
Kay Swift
Albert Von Tilzer
Harry Von Tilzer
Fats Waller
Harry Warren
Richard A. Whiting
Harry M. Woods
Jack Yellen
Vincent Youmans
Joe Young
Hy Zaret

[jhar26]

This is very true, Armstrong was very popular.

Later, yes. But he was not part of the mainstream when he made those hot fives and seven records. In the 1920's whites didn't have a clue about 'black music.'

[Lethevich]

That's a bit extreme, isn't it?

To follow up on this and the post you quote - surely it has become (or remains?) very rare to find an adult of any age who is a serious classical music listener. The older a person gets the more likely they are to make token "oh, that is lovely" reactions to Mozart when his music plays - often out of deference - but few try to make the leap to something beyond that. As you say, all those people who don't listen to classical are listening to something, and pop is extremely popular amongst people of all ages.

[jhar26]

As you say, all those people who don't listen to classical are listening to something, and pop is extremely popular amongst people of all ages.

I don't think that those people would be listening to classical music if there wasn't any pop though. Most of them would probably be listening to nothing whatsoever.

[greg]

I don't think that those people would be listening to classical music if there wasn't any pop though. Most of them would probably be listening to nothing whatsoever.

That's nearly true for me. If I had never gotten into classical, I'd still only be into a few rock/metal artists and bands, none of which are considered mainstream.

[Brahmsian]

I think peer pressure plays a big part in it.  Even into adulthood.  It's not 'cool' or 'hip' to listen to classical music, so you may as well continue status quo.

[greg]

I think peer pressure plays a big part in it.  Even into adulthood.  It's not 'cool' or 'hip' to listen to classical music, so you may as well continue status quo.

And no one even talks about or hears about anything related to classical music. It's like Madagascar. Who ever hears anything that goes on over there? Who can even name a city in that country? If people aren't  exposed to any of it, it'll just be some odd thing no one cares about in a distant place far off.

[jhar26]

And no one even talks about or hears about anything related to classical music. It's like Madagascar. Who ever hears anything that goes on over there? Who can even name a city in that country? If people aren't  exposed to any of it, it'll just be some odd thing no one cares about in a distant place far off.

There are radio stations, classical music magazines, concerts on the telly, informative internet sites, forums like this one and so on. The problem is not that there's no opportunity for people to learn about and listen to classical music but rather that they reject it.

[Teresa]

There are radio stations, classical music magazines, concerts on the telly, informative internet sites, forums like this one and so on. The problem is not that there's no opportunity for people to learn about and listen to classical music but rather that they reject it.

I was one of those who rejected classical music because I hated (and still do) the type of classical music they play on the radio, TV and in the movies.  Until I heard Mussorgsky/Ravel's Pictures At An Exhibition I thought ALL classical music was boring elevator music and rejected it because I thought it sucked.  I now own thousands of classical compositions by 258 composers, most of which are not mainstream, and NONE are boring. 

I think it is just finding the RIGHT classical music for each listener.  This is why I wrote Classical Music for music lovers who don't think they like Classical Music as I know there are other music lovers being denied classical music as they think it is boring crap.  Not all of it is, indeed I have discovered I love perhaps about 5% of the classical works I have tried.  And classical music, my kind of classical music is my favorite music of all. 

[jochanaan]

I sense that in most cases, it's not a matter of "taste"--whatever that is--but rather of interest and exposure.  There are many who choose not to make the time or effort to understand the sort of long, complex, challenging music that many of us love.  They are not "shallow" people; they just have other interests.  And we all know of many who have simply never heard that there is a world of music longer, broader and deeper than the Top 40 stuff the mass media try to foist on us.

Yet, sadly, there are many who find what they like, often in the sort of transcendent experience that many of us know, early in life--and then stop there, much as certain "born-again Christians" think they know all about God after a deep, sincere conversion.  These are greater nuisances than those who simply don't take the time to appreciate big, challenging music.

[greg]

There are radio stations, classical music magazines, concerts on the telly, informative internet sites, forums like this one and so on. The problem is not that there's no opportunity for people to learn about and listen to classical music but rather that they reject it.

Probably a combination of both.
As for radio, it's there for me in some AM station, which doesn't even play it all day, and when they do, it's about 80% baroque music.
As for classical music magazines, I've only seen them in one place before- in a Borders that is now out of business.
As for television concerts, that's not really that common, either, but I do have a special channel where I live which shows a lot of stuff. I've seen a few on PBS, but no one really watches PBS anyways...

And few people can even name a living composer that doesn't write film music...

People aren't exposed to it much at all- when they are, it's usually classical or baroque stuff, which often they reject for being "boring" (though i've known cases where they like it).

[Mirror Image]

I got into classical through the backdoor. I was a "jazz guy" as another classical fan called me years ago and their argument against me being a "jazz guy" is they thought I couldn't comprehend what Mozart or Haydn were doing with their music, which as I found is often the case with classical snobs, is that they know next-to-nothing about music outside of this genre and they make juvenile asumptions based on nothing.

I came to classical as a passionate lover of music in general. I think it's in bad taste to assume anybody who enjoys other kinds of music, outside of classical, are not intelligent or musically curious people. How does one really know what the other person has heard or has been exposed to?

This said, my early rock experiences have been with the progressive groups and musicians: Genesis, King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, Marillion, among others, but soon I discovered jazz and bluegrass, which led me, eventually, to discovering classical music. I've only been hardcore into classical for 2 years now, but I have learned so much in such a short time by constantly researching composers, conductors, orchestras, etc. Music is a never-ending journey. If you're at all musically curious, then it's just a matter of time before you discover something completely new that turns your world upside down.

[The new erato]

Music is a never-ending journey. If you're at all musically curious, then it's just a matter of time before you discover something completely new that turns your world upside down.

So true.

Listening to Kate and Anna McGarrigle now. Anybody calling this crap better not reveal where they live!

[marvinbrown]

That's a bit extreme, isn't it? Most of my friends and acquaintances, aged mainly 25 to 56, are far more likely to be fans of pop and rock music than classical, although they may like a bit of R Strauss or Barber's Adagio.

To follow up on this and the post you quote - surely it has become (or remains?) very rare to find an adult of any age who is a serious classical music listener. The older a person gets the more likely they are to make token "oh, that is lovely" reactions to Mozart when his music plays - often out of deference - but few try to make the leap to something beyond that. As you say, all those people who don't listen to classical are listening to something, and pop is extremely popular amongst people of all ages.

  I keep coming back to this thread because it spells out many of the truths about my current situation that I would like to deny. I feel- no- I know that I am becoming more and more isolated as the years go by.  MDL and Lethe have accurately defined my current situation. None of my friends nor family share my passion for classical music. They  prefer pop rock etc. claiming that it is indeed good musical taste! If push ever comes to shove I guess they would say that I am the one with crappy taste in music, and that I am out of touch with current trends in music.  I am in the minority here, it certainly feels that way.

  "Crappy taste?? Look no further than marvinbrown with his ridiculous fascination with fat women screaming their lungs out in German" they would say................

  marvin

[drogulus]

     People don't have the same opportunities to cultivate a taste for classical music that they used to have when it was part of the school curriculum and seen on TV (not just on public TV). It doesn't matter that there are all these classical music resources out there if you have no connecting bridge to them. These resources appear to be for people that are unlike you, members of an elite that speak a language that excludes you as much as it includes them.* Would I have developed a taste for classical music without the bridges I encountered? I have to say no, I don't think it's likely that I would.

  _{* The question of whether classical music is elitist or whether I'm a member of an elite because I like it isn't very interesting. Yes, no, it depends...who knows? Nothing much depends on it.}

[marvinbrown]

     People don't have the same opportunities to cultivate a taste for classical music that they used to have when it was part of the school curriculum and seen on TV (not just on public TV). It doesn't matter that there are all these classical music resources out there if you have no connecting bridge to them. These resources appear to be for people that are unlike you, members of an elite that speak a language that excludes you as much as it includes them.* Would I have developed a taste for classical music without the bridges I encountered? I have to say no, I don't think it's likely that I would.

  _{* The question of whether classical music is elitist or whether I'm a member of an elite because I like it isn't very interesting. Yes, no, it depends...who knows? Nothing much depends on it.}

  Very good point, perhaps creating more bridges is what is needed, but the reaction that I get from a lot of people is that classical music is archaic, a dying art form and hence crap so why should we bother with it, whether that is a reaction to the perceived notion that classical music is elitist I do not know??  That said I do not consider myself an elitist in any shape or form!


  marvin

[jhar26]

  I keep coming back to this thread because it spells out many of the truths about my current situation that I would like to deny. I feel- no- I know that I am becoming more and more isolated as the years go by.  MDL and Lethe have accurately defined my current situation. None of my friends nor family share my passion for classical music. They  prefer pop rock etc. claiming that it is indeed good musical taste! If push ever comes to shove I guess they would say that I am the one with crappy taste in music, and that I am out of touch with current trends in music.  I am in the minority here, it certainly feels that way.

  "Crappy taste?? Look no further than marvinbrown with his ridiculous fascination with fat women screaming their lungs out in German" they would say................

  marvin

I'm not the least bit interested in what family or friends think about my taste in music. That's a healthy attitude to have I think - don't bother with the opinions of those who aren't interested anyway and don't look for approval from those that don't have a clue. 

[jochanaan]

Well, classical music itself is not a singular, monolithic thing.  Many of my family share my deep love of "classical music" (for lack of a more accurate term), but none of them share my excitement about contemporary classical composers. Actually, many of my non-classical musical colleagues are about as excited about the contemporary masters as I am.