Ritualistic, Primitive (Sounding) Music

[snyprrr]

I'm thinking gongs.

I'm thinking ancient brass sounds.

I'm thinking sacrifical percussion.

Where did it come from? Obviously, I'm not thinking Mozart's Masonic Funeral Music. Sorry, but I'm talking about the 20th century revival and interest in the waaaay past.

People like Varese and Chavez and Scelsi and Revueltas come to mind.

Boulez's Ritual in Memoriam Bruno Maderna certainly fits the sonic requirements (is it the best example yet?).



... or, is this music that I've heard in films so much that there really isn't much serious music in this vein? Seeing the Planet of the Apes last night, with that primitive Jerry Goldsmith soundtrack, made me wonder about how in the movies primitivism is always represented with a somewhat "shocking" upward brass whoop.

Anyone got the goods?



Some have thought Scelsi's examples to be inferior to Varese?

[listener]

most unexpected
Janacek'sGlagolitic Mass in Kenneth Anger's film The Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome

[Brian]

John Antill's ballet Corroboree, so tribal and so aboriginal that it includes in the orchestra a bull-roarer. The first movement is like Revueltas' Sensemaya, the middle movements are a bit more relaxed, and then the finale lets loose in a madcap orgy of primitivist sounds and sheer mega-orchestral excitement. Here's a pretty apt description of the music.

[snyprrr]

most unexpected
Janacek'sGlagolitic Mass in Kenneth Anger's film The Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome

That is!



Whaaat are you doing watching that,...that filth??

... ahhh, college filmmaking...
ooops,...I was spacin'

[Daverz]

Try some Jon Leifs.

[Sid]

Some of Carter's stuff sounds a bit like a kind of "civilised" version of Varese - try the Three Occasions for Orchestra or the Concerto for Orchestra.

Villa-Lobos' various Choros (especially the 8th) have some primitive rhythms, but they are also a bit more sophisticated than what you're after.

Australian composer Peter Sculthorpe's Sun Music(s) I-IV, Kakadu and Piano Concerto also have some more vigorous writing for the percussion and brass.

& Messiaen's Turangalila-Symphonie can also sound a bit ritualistic & intense in certain conductor's hands, though including it here may be stretching it (?)...

[mikkeljs]

I have always thought of ritualistic, primitive sound as the result of exploring complexity. There might be different interpretations of the concept of primitivity, but I think it´s possible to generalize it all down to this. As an example I would rather speak of Prokofiev than Stravinsky. In lots of Prokfievs music you find a primitive sound in the sence of a childish construction just like in Stravinsky, but here it´s clear that the all comes from a combination of 2 hierarchies with diverse degrees of complexity, such as a simple motif of tonal intervals put together in an odd [more complex than expected] way. This seems to be about rapidly experienced complexity.

Ancient gongs and bells or any other sound sources with a sence of random generated color like Cages music for prepared piano or strange materials, is probably the same. The natural experience of deep complexity sounds primitive and asystematical.

Im not sure what snyprrr is doing with this subject, if he is just wondering about the primitive sounds appereance in music or rather looking for a deeper understanding of this phenomenon? I was confused about  primitive sound, when I was younger, because I didn´t understand what it was. So I started analyzing it and came to the conclusion that it´s actually the sound of wakening up.   

[Dax]

Snyprrr's description immediately brought Tibetan stuff to mind (such as at the beginning of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdBSTAw_cKY) but I suspect something more rhythmic (motoric?) may form part of the equation. A little more specific please? I think the word "primitive" is best avoided here - it smacks of those hopefully well-past-their-date notions of Western "superiority" . . .

[karlhenning]

The Ramones

; )

[jowcol]

John Antill's ballet Corroboree, so tribal and so aboriginal that it includes in the orchestra a bull-roarer. The first movement is like Revueltas' Sensemaya, the middle movements are a bit more relaxed, and then the finale lets loose in a madcap orgy of primitivist sounds and sheer mega-orchestral excitement. Here's a pretty apt description of the music.

Nice choice, and Naxos has released the full ballet as opposed to the sutie .  (The original LP release has music from Ginastera's Panambi on the flip side-- nice pairing...)

Corroboree also had, (in what sounds to my ears) some jazzy and playful moments.

[jochanaan]

Hmmm...Civilization has had many benefits, but lots of people, from as far back as Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his "noble savage" ideal, feel that we have lost something in abandoning the "primitive" portions of ourselves.  In music, we might say that fascination with the primitive goes at least as far back as Wagner's Ring with its gods and heroes, although Wagner's music is by no means primitive.

Of course, the first piece that comes to mind in this context is the aforementioned Rite of Spring, but there are some others I can think of as well, most notably Varèse's Ecuatorial and Ionisation, Carlos Chavez's Sinfonia India, and John Corigliano's soundtrack score for the movie Altered States.

[karlhenning]

Boom chik-a-chik-a.

[springrite]

Andriesson: De Staat (1972-1976)

[karlhenning]

Thanks for that reminder, Paul!

[Sonata33]

Leo Ornstein's "Wild Men's Dance?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNsn7NjDPkM

[snyprrr]

I have always thought of ritualistic, primitive sound as the result of exploring complexity. There might be different interpretations of the concept of primitivity, but I think it´s possible to generalize it all down to this. As an example I would rather speak of Prokofiev than Stravinsky. In lots of Prokfievs music you find a primitive sound in the sence of a childish construction just like in Stravinsky, but here it´s clear that the all comes from a combination of 2 hierarchies with diverse degrees of complexity, such as a simple motif of tonal intervals put together in an odd [more complex than expected] way. This seems to be about rapidly experienced complexity.

Ancient gongs and bells or any other sound sources with a sence of random generated color like Cages music for prepared piano or strange materials, is probably the same. The natural experience of deep complexity sounds primitive and asystematical.

Im not sure what snyprrr is doing with this subject, if he is just wondering about the primitive sounds appereance in music or rather looking for a deeper understanding of this phenomenon? I was confused about  primitive sound, when I was younger, because I didn´t understand what it was. So I started analyzing it and came to the conclusion that it´s actually the sound of wakening up.   

Yes, very interesting,...please continue,...any thoughts would be illuminating.

And yes, I can see the waking up thing,...

but I have noticed, that every time music "like this" is used in the movies, it's always an ominous (going to the big sleep!,...instead of waking up!) thing, no?

But please, we are defining this Thread as we go,...if it indeed arouses anyone's curiosity.

[snyprrr]

Snyprrr's description immediately brought Tibetan stuff to mind (such as at the beginning of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdBSTAw_cKY) but I suspect something more rhythmic (motoric?) may form part of the equation. A little more specific please? I think the word "primitive" is best avoided here - it smacks of those hopefully well-past-their-date notions of Western "superiority" . . .

Yes, I'm not sure what I'm driving at other than the whooping brass of the Planet of the Apes movie made me think of Varese and Scelsi, which made me think of Aztecs and Egyptians, and so on.

And no, I'm probably NOT driving at "authentic" sounds (Tibetan monks,...not so much anymore) so much, though, in this Scelsi disc I just got, Aldo Brizzi revamped one of the Riti, where he took off the mouthpiece of the bass sax, which yields a pretty cool (ancient sounding) tone on this recording (Memoire Vive), yes, a very complex tone to answer the one point.


I'm sure I could confuse the issue very quickly, so I'd like you all to put in your 2 cents as to what these concepts might mean to you (and already it is obvious that many here have already delved into this).

[snyprrr]

The Ramones

; )

The Cramps!



I love how in pop music (bass, drums, guitar) lately, the big "primitive" thing is to have no bass guitar player. Don't get me started, haha!

[Joe Barron]

Stravinsky, Les Noces.

Some of Cage's music for prepared piano also has the feeling you describe.

[snyprrr]

Of course, it just hit me that Carmina Burana is almost the stereotypical thing here,...or is it? It's a bit too uppity to be ancient sounding. It does remind me of a Modern devil rite, though, kind of like the old Karloff/Lugosi film The Black Cat (there's modern primitive, ha).

But Stravinsky definitely has a slightly alien sounding rhythmic gait, sounding what I might imagine as ancient Greek music.

Speaking of which,....Xenakis in his Greek Theater mode (Orestia, Medea) certainly probably comes closest to authenticity and brutality. The instruments do wail in an "from eternity" kind of way, very strident, as if another definition of the word "beauty".



In my head, parts of Scelsi comes close to what I envision, but, I mean, I don't see it as a mystery as to what this music would sound like. Invariably it will be winds, brass, percussion (music on the go!), with or without vocals (of what kind, it really doesn't matter, I think),... the tempo will go from funereal to strident,...

I think my point is, is that I'd loooove to write some of this stuff, but I just can't imagine that it hasn't been done to death.

I would love to hear the high school band playing my "Ancient Ritual Sacrifice" music,...broughahahahaha !!