French Baroque Music

[Drasko]

Who are the best composers of "grands motets", and which are the preferred recordings of them? I recently heard De Mondonville's and was very impressed, and from a quick Amazon scan, I see that composers in this style include Rameau, Campra, Lully, De Lalande, Desmarest, Du Mont, which is a lot to buy without any guidance... 0:)

Good choice. In my humble opinion Grand Motet is one of the defining genres of French baroque and it's development folllows that of the entire period. They are also very nice entry point into vocal music of the period being less long-winded than operas and less pious than masses or requiems.
Classic model, as sort of extended cantata for 4-5 solo voices, chorus and orchestra on latin texts was created by Henry Du Mont, and that model basically never changed but styles, harmonies, influences, use of instruments most certainly did so choosing the best composer of Grand Motets isn't that easy since comparing Du Mont on one end and Mondonville on the other is pretty pointless. But if I had to chose one name it would be Delalande, he is simply the most convincing in molding all different elements, courtly galant airs, supportive and independent orchestral parts, polyphony and big monophonic battle choruses, into unified whole. His melodic invention is first rate and feeling for mixing intimate and dramatic unfailing.
So if you want one name disregarding the changes in idiom over the years that would be, in my mind undoubtedly, Delalande but if you'd want to explore the genre more or less chronologically then these would be the most essential names: Du Mont and Lully in the first generation, Delalande and Charpentier in the next, followed by Desmarest, Gilles (with some local influences and in case of Desmarest wide range of influences picked along his travels) then Francois Couperin and Campra (more and more of Italian style) and ending with Rameau and Mondonville. That is about hundred years worth, by the time of French revolution genre went out of fashion, from the period before 1660 little is preserved but you could try Bouzignac, not exactly grand motets, far closer to medieval style (I personally couldn't get into it but you like medieval).   

[Drasko]

And yes, the recordings (most already mentioned along this thread)


Du Mont, Couperin, Rameau

De Lalande
or
Desmarest

Campra

Mondonville

Gilles

Maybe someone else could cover Lully and Charpentier, I'm less familiar with their output of Grand Motets.

There is Rameau's In Convertendo on DVD but also on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLcuRfJzetI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3emeg3Y8Rfw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHHCxpgpc2E

[Lethevich]

Yay, thanks. Lots to get You are right about their accessability, in the size of the sound created, at least in the recording I heard, they can sound like mini oratorios, and tend to end more quickly than I wish - which I suppose is a good thing

Mondonville

This is the one I heard - very well performed, it made a real impact.

[Lilas Pastia]

Excellent post, Milos! Thanks for the succinct appreciation of the genre.

Meanwhile, I'll try to see if there's place on my shelves for this mammoth box of "Versailles" music. I tend to listen less when it's not offered singly. I found that out with the Vivaldi box, the Couperin ones (harpsichord and chamber music) and a couple others. But if there's enough in there I don't already know, it might be worth it.

[Drasko]

I'm delighted to see this new issue by Rousset. I never got to his previous recording as a youngster on L'Oiseau Lyre, which has been OOP for a long, long time now.

Anyone heard it yet?



Q

I have, and I'm very impressed with his playing nowdays (Bach French Suites also). It sounds to me there is more rhythmic and dynamic* shadings in his playing than before, of course with his ability of mellifluous legato phrasing at any given speed untouched. Hear for yourself, two pieces:

La Majestueuse**
http://www.mediafire.com/?zymkmmkdnkd
Le Vertigo
http://www.mediafire.com/?iuoknmjjwdu

He plays this beauty;

Clavecin fait par Goujon(1749) et ravalé par Swanen (1784)



* Swanen ravalement includes knee lever diminuendo mechanism
** New tracks uploaded, link on next page

[ezodisy]

Le Vertigo
http://www.mediafire.com/?iuoknmjjwdu

You've got ears of steel Drasko. I'm going in for surgery after that one. This is like some kind of early heavy metal.

[Drasko]

You've got ears of steel Drasko. I'm going in for surgery after that one.

Try to hold on till Covent Garden Elektra, that way you won't have to go twice, fluffy bunny ears.

[ezodisy]

heh I nearly went tonight, just couldn't muster the energy to go out. I need some absinthe after that piece.

[Que]

You've got ears of steel Drasko. I'm going in for surgery after that one. This is like some kind of early heavy metal.

Oh great! I dote on extravagances like this - anyone thinks French Baroque is boring?
A smashing instrument indeed, and Rousset is just the man for this.


PS Off topic - but Drasko, do try that Della Ciaja on Accord Baroque!

Q

[Que]

REPOST:

BTW There is currently a special offer on this label "Accord" - whith many interesting recordings of French and Italian Baroque music - at MDT.

What would be your top 3-5 picks for the French stuff?

I haven't tried everything in that Accord Baroque series, but my top picks would be:

For the French baroque: definitely the Dandrieu by Olivier Baumont, closely followed by the two volumes of harpsichord music of Louis Couperin by Noëlle Spieth. Not to be missed is, also on account of the participation by Véronique Gens, the Boismortier motets - very colourful. Oops, that's four already!  In chamber music I liked the Rameau Concerts en Sextuor very much indeed. But your money is also well spent on the Le Roux. Personally I wouldn't be without the Leclair violin concerts. Maybe not the most profound masterpieces but with a special, unique flavour and very inventive. And I cannot resist the top shelf violin playing by Daniel Cuillier.

I know - it's a bit much...

PS I have previously commented on several of these recordings on this very thread.

Q

[Drasko]

Whilst trying to get some order in my rather messy mediafire account I accidentally deleted the two Royer pieces featuring few posts above
So, if anyone wants to hear them in future do PM me and I'll re-upload them.

[Que]

Nice disc. Mondonville was apparently in the business of writing "pretty" music, pleasing to the ear and mind. He uses various "theatrical" effects in his music in connection to the text. The clarity and pretty smoothness has a pre-Mozartian feel to it. Stylistically very clear Italian influences. A very nice "different" flavour in the rich pallet of French Grands Motets, but other composers offer perhaps more emotional (and musical) profundity.
Performance is gorgeous: soft edged & delicate singing - real French subtlety.

Q

[Que]

I have, and I'm very impressed with his playing nowdays (Bach French Suites also). It sounds to me there is more rhythmic and dynamic shadings in his playing than before, of course with his ability of mellifluous legato phrasing at any given speed untouched.

I also got this disc and let me add my recommendation - a great disc of French harpsichord music. Rousset uncovers all the complexities in this music, indeed - terrific phrasing. The instrument sounds gorgeous: very rich, but still crystall clear - pretty much an ideal harpsichord for French music.

Q

[Drasko]

Nice disc. Mondonville was apparently in the business of writing "pretty" music, pleasing to the ear and mind. He uses various "theatrical" effects in his music in connection to the text. The clarity and pretty smoothness has a pre-Mozartian feel to it. Stylistically very clear Italian influences. A very nice "different" flavour in the rich pallet of French Grands Motets, but other composers offer perhaps more emotional (and musical) profundity.
Performance is gorgeous: soft edged & delicate singing - real French subtlety.

Yes, Mondonville had been accused of being trite even in his time, Marmontel wrote something along that setting texts of David to pretty tunes and light choruses denigrates them, but I have to say I hardly give a damn. Seeking some psychological or philosophical profundity in Mondonville's music is certainly futile but I'd argue that craft and that hard to define concept of Bon Goût are the essence in his case, style is content here and I have no problems enjoying it.

As for pre-Mozartian feel, it is there with Mondonville but not quite yet. If you'd like to explore the real endgame of french Grands Motets, where late baroque morphs into classicism, this would be the disc to go for (two thirds of this disc are included in the big Versailles box as well):

[james66]

I also got this disc and let me add my recommendation - a great disc of French harpsichord music. Rousset uncovers all the complexities in this music, indeed - terrific phrasing. The instrument sounds gorgeous: very rich, but still crystall clear - pretty much an ideal harpsichord for French music.

Q

Any ideas as to how this recording compares with his previous 1993 Royer excursion, which had a transcription in addition to all the same pieces? Besides the harpsichord (the one he used in the earlier recording was a 1751 Hemsch), are there any differences in interpretation, tempi, ornamentation etc.?

[Bunny]

Any ideas as to how this recording compares with his previous 1993 Royer excursion, which had a transcription in addition to all the same pieces? Besides the harpsichord (the one he used in the earlier recording was a 1751 Hemsch), are there any differences in interpretation, tempi, ornamentation etc.?

I have the older recording but I've been considering the newer recording for a while; here's what I've learned about it: They are not the same recording; the the newer release does not include the transcription for harpsichord of La Chasse de Zäide (1739).  They are both available from amazon as mp3 downloads so you can sample the tracks for comparison.  It appears from the track samples that Rousset exercised more restraint in the ornamentation in the later recording which was made at the Musée de la Musique, Paris and it also has a drier accoustic.  Rousset used a Jean-Claude Goujon harpsichord modified by Jacques Joachim Swanen in 1784 from the collection of the Musée for the newer recording.  If I buy the second recording, it will be because of the instrument. 

[Que]

Rousset used a Jean-Claude Goujon harpsichord modified by Jacques Joachim Swanen in 1784 from the collection of the Musée for the newer recording.  If I buy the second recording, it will be because of the instrument. 

Bunny, that would be an excellent reason because that harpsichord (more a piece of art in itself, really) sounds terrific.




Sébastien de Brossard was a contemporary of Charpentier, and indeed competitor - he was passed over in favour of Charpentier for the job of maître de musique des enfants at the Sainte Chapelle in 1698. He was also a musicologist. Maybe technically less accomplished than Charpentier but it his highly individual emotional, rich and pungent style does it for me!  I consider this a great new find in the French Baroque. I'll definitely get more by him - on to his grands motets!

This disc contains a very touching 1mvt (18 mnts) Stabat Mater, a large motet and a Christmas Mass. The performance is superlative: the sound of the choir Les Pages et les Chantres de la Chapelle, which includes young boys and girls, is marvelous and crystall clear - including great solos.

Five star review at Goldbergweb

Samples at Amazon.fr

Q

[71 dB]

I have one Brossard discs (Lecons des morts, Véronique Gens/Gérard Lesne/Il Seminario musicale), part of a 5 CD boxset. I haven't warmed up to Brossard that much and I think this disc is enough for me. I prefer Charpentier and Clérambault much more.

[SonicMan46]

Well, I've obtain a surfeit of French harpsichord music lately - 

The 2 tops discs added recently to my collection after reading excellent reviews in Fanfare - both can be recommended; the 11-CD Couperin box discussed in this thread (and elsewhere) is in the mail! 

 

[SonicMan46]

Michael Borgstede's Brilliant Boxes of the Harpsichord Works of Couperin & Handel arrived in the mail yesterday afternoon - giving both a listening on Sunday morn - just want to put the post here for the Couperin - a couple of links provided to some good reviews; plus, I did just order the book mentioned in the edit from Amazon - looking forward to reading along on a future listening; obviously will take me a number of days to get through all of these discs! - 

Well, I'm in for some harpsichord music - Brilliant box arrivals yesterday in the late afternoon mail:

Couperin & Handel - both w/ Michael Borgstede, 11 & 4 discs, respectively - this will take me a while! 

The Couperin booklet is good but too brief - the names for many of these orders are somewhat mysterious and Borgstede relates some of his own interpretations which are quite enjoyable - a short book on these works would be interesting!  Unfortunately, the Handel booklet offers NO text - somewhat disappointing, but for the ridiculously low prices paid of these sets and the quality of the playing, worth the 'entrance fee' - 

Both boxes have received excellent comments in our pages; plus, CLICK on the images for some other reviews.

EDIT:  Another excellent review of the Couperin Box HERE - also mentioned was the book - The Mirror of Human Life: Reflections on Francois Couperin's "Pieces De Clavecin" by Clark & Conon published in 2002 (128 pgs) - will need to get my hands on a copy!