Confederate re-enactors are one thing, this is another

[bwv 1080]

(CNN) -- A Republican candidate running for U.S. Congress says his past donning of a Nazi outfit was part of a historical lesson -- and defended his background in military re-enactments.
Rich Iott, a Tea Party favorite running for election in Ohio's 9th Congressional District, explained his position during an interview on CNN's "AC 360" Monday night.
Iott participated in World War II re-enactments for several years in the past decade and created a German alter ego. He has said he started participating in the events as a way to bond with his son. Iott has also participated in Civil War and World War I re-enactments.
"The whole purpose of historical re-enacting is to educate people one-on-one," Iott said. "And that is done by going out and participating in re-enactments."
When asked whether he thought the men being impersonated were "valiant men," Iott said, "I don't think we can sit here and judge that today. We were not there the time they made those decisions. Were there bad people? Absolutely. Were there atrocities committed? Absolutely there were. There are people that want to deny the Holocaust ever happened in this country and around the world."

The website for Iott's re-enactment group -- which impersonates members of the 5th SS Panzerdivision, Wiking -- does not mention the Holocaust directly.
According to Wiking's website, it is a nonprofit group with a "common interest in the German side of the war and want to tell the story of the average combat soldier of the German military."
"Racism or any type of embracement of Nazi ideology of any kind is strictly prohibited by this re-enactment unit," the website reads.
But the website does not mention what historians have said about the division -- that the group was involved in war crimes and atrocities, including the death marches and massacres of Jews in the spring of 1945.
When asked if Iott knew of the atrocities associated with the SS, the candidate replied, "What happened in Germany during the second World War is absolutely one of the low points in human history. In fact ... [the website] talks about what happened and that we don't support that. We don't support the political or the ideological motives of that time. We're talking strictly about the history. It's important for us to remember that history."
Iott's political opponents were quick to condemn him as a "Nazi enthusiast."
"It's an unbelievably disturbing story here about this Nazi enthusiast," Ryan Rudominer, national press secretary for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, has said.

[Catison]

Is it bad that I don't immediately understand what is wrong with this?  Am I a Nazi enthusiast for watching Inglorious Basterds?

[Josquin des Prez]

He's been involved in war re-enactments for 35 years and has spent three occasions portraying the enemy. Ho no, the horror!

[Philoctetes]

He's been involved in war re-enactments for 35 years and has spent three occasions portraying the enemy. Ho no, the horror!

I think the complaint was more aimed at the historical inaccuracy.

[bwv 1080]

having pictures taken of your self in an SS uniform is not conducive to a successful political career

not to mention that these guys do tend to romanticize the whole war in the East

[Daverz]

When I first heard about this, I didn't think it was a big deal, either.  But the guy has since doubled down.

[bwv 1080]

When I first heard about this, I didn't think it was a big deal, either.  But the guy has since doubled down.

right - the problem is the portrayal of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union as some sort of crusade against Stalinism, when in fact its goal was the eradication of the majority of its citizens and the enslavement of the minority that remained

[Herman]

I was rather struck by the way this reenactment group pictured the Nazis. OK, there were "twisted", perhaps they were even "totalitarian", but still they were welcomed in countries they conquered and occupied because this way personal "freedom" was vouchsafed (i.e. the Nazis were no communists).

I'd say that is pretty twisted, too.

The interesting inference would be that you can do anything you like  -  kill no end of people, slavery, whatever  -  as long as you're not a communist you're doing just fine.

Apparently you can work your way through the US educational system quite succesfully, have a career, and believe this kind of toxic nonsense.

[bwv 1080]

I was rather struck by the way this reenactment group pictured the Nazis. OK, there were "twisted", perhaps they were even "totalitarian", but still they were welcomed in countries they conquered and occupied because this way personal "freedom" was vouchsafed (i.e. the Nazis were no communists).

Of course they were initially welcomed as the population of the Western USSR was under the misapprehension that nothing could be worse than Stalin

[Josquin des Prez]

right - the problem is the portrayal of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union as some sort of crusade against Stalinism, when in fact its goal was the eradication of the majority of its citizens and the enslavement of the minority that remained

If only you realized just how ridicolous that sounds.

[bwv 1080]

If only you realized just how ridicolous that sounds.

What is ridiculous about it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

[Daverz]

If only you realized just how ridicolous that sounds.

What's ridiculous is that you still haven't crawled back under your rock.

[Josquin des Prez]

Ho, i'm sorry, i forgot my place in there for a second. Of course the Germans wanted to exterminate the entire Soviet Union. And why stop there? I'm sure they had similar plans for England, France, Italy (freaking Mussolini), and of course, China! (nothing like going from millions to billions!!!). And of course, after cleansing the entire planet, which was their ultimate goal along (duh), mass suicide for all the major Nazi leaders (none of whom were actually Nordic). Makes you wonder why we didn't nuke the entire country. After all, like Saul said, once a Nazi, always a Nazi, and the German genocidal instinct is bound to wake up one day once more.

Now, if we could just step outside the movie theater and..., no? Ho well.

[Florestan]

What I find really ridiculous --- and dangerous as well --- is judging someone by the colour and shape of the shirt he wears.

FWIW, if forced to choose between Hitler and Stalin I'd cast my lot with Tocqueville! 

[Daverz]

Ho, i'm sorry, i forgot my place in there for a second. Of course the Germans wanted to exterminate the entire Soviet Union.

The Nazis outright murdered millions of Soviet citizens in the short time available to them (over 8 million according to the Wikipedia article). 

"Generalplan Ost foresaw the deportation of 45 million non-Germanizable people from Eastern Europe, of whom 31 million were "racially undesirable", 100% of Jews, Poles (85%), Belorussians (75%) and Ukrainians (64%), to West Siberia,^[2] and about 14 millions were to remain, but were to be treated as slaves."

We know now of course that "deportation", if it meant deportation and not just outright extermination, would have meant an extremely high death rate (and by design, not by accident).

Whether the Nazis planned to wipe out 25%, a majority, or the entirety of the Soviet Union is irrelevant to the moral calculus.  That you choose to get exercised by the distinction is telling.

[Saul]

(CNN) -- A Republican candidate running for U.S. Congress says his past donning of a Nazi outfit was part of a historical lesson -- and defended his background in military re-enactments.
Rich Iott, a Tea Party favorite running for election in Ohio's 9th Congressional District, explained his position during an interview on CNN's "AC 360" Monday night.
Iott participated in World War II re-enactments for several years in the past decade and created a German alter ego. He has said he started participating in the events as a way to bond with his son. Iott has also participated in Civil War and World War I re-enactments.
"The whole purpose of historical re-enacting is to educate people one-on-one," Iott said. "And that is done by going out and participating in re-enactments."
When asked whether he thought the men being impersonated were "valiant men," Iott said, "I don't think we can sit here and judge that today. We were not there the time they made those decisions. Were there bad people? Absolutely. Were there atrocities committed? Absolutely there were. There are people that want to deny the Holocaust ever happened in this country and around the world."

The website for Iott's re-enactment group -- which impersonates members of the 5th SS Panzerdivision, Wiking -- does not mention the Holocaust directly.
According to Wiking's website, it is a nonprofit group with a "common interest in the German side of the war and want to tell the story of the average combat soldier of the German military."
"Racism or any type of embracement of Nazi ideology of any kind is strictly prohibited by this re-enactment unit," the website reads.
But the website does not mention what historians have said about the division -- that the group was involved in war crimes and atrocities, including the death marches and massacres of Jews in the spring of 1945.
When asked if Iott knew of the atrocities associated with the SS, the candidate replied, "What happened in Germany during the second World War is absolutely one of the low points in human history. In fact ... [the website] talks about what happened and that we don't support that. We don't support the political or the ideological motives of that time. We're talking strictly about the history. It's important for us to remember that history."
Iott's political opponents were quick to condemn him as a "Nazi enthusiast."
"It's an unbelievably disturbing story here about this Nazi enthusiast," Ryan Rudominer, national press secretary for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, has said.

I wonder how this clown will feel if someone reenact how his parents and entire family and friends were butchered by wild crazed lunatic gang of vicious murderers.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

The ironies accumulate. Mr. SS Re-enactor is, like a lot of Republicans, gung-ho for the most aggressive Israeli policies imaginable. From the above link:

"I think that Israel should evacuate all the Israelis from Gaza and then bomb it into the Stone Age."

I haven't lived in the US since 2004, so maybe my view is skewed, but is American politics going nuts? Between this guy, anti-masturbation crusader Christine O'Donnell, and various other characters, that's my impression. It's entertaining I suppose, but the thought of these people in positions of power is kinda scary.

[Herman]

Of course they were initially welcomed as the population of the Western USSR was under the misapprehension that nothing could be worse than Stalin

Perhaps you haven't read the material of this reenactment group. It says that the populations of countries like France and Belgium were relieved about the Nazi occupation, since the Nazis would vouchsafe their freedom.

[Herman]

Ho, i'm sorry, i forgot my place in there for a second. Of course the Germans wanted to exterminate the entire Soviet Union. And why stop there?

Not a serious response.

The Nazis regarded the Russians as second class humans. Ultimately they would be a labor force for the Germans  -  which of course entailed a horrific attrition rate. The German population had a pretty good life for most of the WWII because the Nazis were looting the occupied countries big time, something which these American reenactors seem to be unaware of, too. Only when allied bombing raids started to get serious were things getting less comfortable for the German stay at homes.

[bwv 1080]

Perhaps you haven't read the material of this reenactment group. It says that the populations of countries like France and Belgium were relieved about the Nazi occupation, since the Nazis would vouchsafe their freedom.

yes and the Viking division was raised from Dutch & Scandinavian volunteers who believed the crusade against Bolshevism propaganda - so a bunch of naive Americans who are suckers for Nazi propaganda are reenacting a division composed naive Dutchmen and Norwegians who were suckers for Nazi propaganda - there's a symmetry there