A = 440Hz ???

[snyprrr]

I'm hoping we can move this discussion from the Haydn String Quartet Thread (though, that is one of the places for it).

I remember a story about ancient China, where some representative of the king would go around the countryside to see the state of affairs. One of the ways he would tell how a locale was doing was by how 'tuned up', or, how 'slack', their tuning was. Apparently, if a locale was depressed, it turned out that their instruments, also, weren't tuned up properly.

Perhaps someone has a better version of this story.

However, the discussion in the Haydn Thread can be pretty confusing. It seems as though I would need a strobe tuner just to know where I'm at. I seriously don't think I have 'pitch', but, I caaan tell the difference between, say, the Quatuor Mosaiques and the Quatuor Festetics. The QF certainly have a very distinctive sound (which, apparently, drives Jens bananas! ).



I play this game with myself everytime I,...hrhmmm,...try to tune the guitar. All I have right now is a blow tuner. EVERY TIME,... when I get 'close', this game starts playing in my head, and I can barely 'hear' where I'm at. Am I 'cents' UP, or 'cents' DOWN?

Then I play this game: out of silence, I just make a tone, and try to guess what it is. I try to emote in 'A', but, it does not seem like it is 440.



In the other Thread, they're talking about A going all the way from the 390s to 460! Wow, that's confusing. This is definitely a topic I need to put to rest, or I will,...yes, I will,... I will OCD on it.

So,...please,...let's tawk about it. Is my blow tuner 440?

[Scarpia]

So,...please,...let's tawk about it. Is my blow tuner 440?

How would we know?

[DavidW]

Buy tuning forks snips and you will have your answer.

[Gurn Blanston]

I was looking at a Tartini disk of mine just this AM. The performers are L'Arte del Arco, and they are very HIP/PI and all that. For Tartini, they use what is called by them a "Venetian Tuning" which is A = 441.

Jens' assertion that tunings were different from town to town and from time period to time period is essentially true. What he doesn't make a point of is that the vast majority of these tunings were still lower than A = 440. Clearly not all of them though. I suspect Italy in general was tuned higher than Germany/HRE in general.

[canninator]

Buy tuning forks snips and you will have your answer.

Yep. Tune your high E with a fork (obviously not at 440) and then tune everything else by listening to the beat frequency between artificial harmonics. Blow pipes are probably not very well made and will give you confusing non-whole number harmonics.

E6 fret 5 against A5 fret 7, well you know this. Anyway, the point is, it doesn't matter if you're at 439 or 441 as everything else will be spot on.

[DavidW]

Cool I didn't know that you tune by high E.  I have a set of tuning forks and I use them in class to demonstrate beat frequencies, doppler shifting and how amplitude (for year ear) is dependent on where you are in the room.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yep. Tune your high E with a fork (obviously not at 440) and then tune everything else by listening to the beat frequency between artificial harmonics. Blow pipes are probably not very well made and will give you confusing non-whole number harmonics.

E6 fret 5 against A5 fret 7, well you know this. Anyway, the point is, it doesn't matter if you're at 439 or 441 as everything else will be spot on.

Oh yes, I hadn't made it far enough through Snipper's post to realize he was talking guitars! When I played, I had a tuning fork in E (whatever freq it was, din't care back then). I used to tap it on my knee and set the base on the bridge and it gave a a lovely, clear perfect E to tune my high string to. And then, as you say, tune it to itself from there. Hell, guitars are easy, just glad I didn't have a harpsichord!   

[jochanaan]

Even today, tuning is not entirely standard.  The German standard for both pianos and orchestras is A445. I believe the Vienna Philharmonic also tunes to A445.

[snyprrr]

Even today, tuning is not entirely standard.  The German standard for both pianos and orchestras is A445. I believe the Vienna Philharmonic also tunes to A445.

AAAaaaaaAaaAahhhHhHHHhhhhhhh.....



ok, here's part of the dilemma. I don't even know where to begin.

A) I'm not JUST talking about guitars, but, that's part of it.

B) I just can't believe that there is no standard for a note!!! I can understand, and I'll take the guitar as example, that just tuning it up or down a step doesn't really do anything, because the player is still fretting the same frets and playing the "same" notes,...right? So, no matter what the tuning, if the tune is in A, the player just plays in "A" position/style (whether the fifth, open string is intoning at 415, 444, or 466). Do you follow?

This is madness!!



I have never never been able to connect my "inner" template with the Keys, as regards to my singing voice, when I am writing a song. I have transposed some songs I've written so many times, trying to get the "pocket", that I psyche myself out to the point I don't know what I'm doing.

At this point, I feel that I've got my "pocket" to about the "B minor" on a standard 440-ish. I can nail the high note in "B minor", haha, or, in anything that I can relate to that high note (f#).

When playing guitar, I have NEVER used "drop down" tuning (Eb, or D), because I have always felt that that just confuses the issue even further. I do admit that those rare times I have done it, it does work just fine, but, I'd rather just play the Eb in the standard tuning, just to keep things simple.

Transposing can be a chore.



Well, this topic is just so tremendously exciting, and terrifying, to me. Uncertain tones are horrifying.



btw- I am so SURE God Almighty knows EXACTLY which pitch corresponds to say, 666Hz!!!

[Luke]

btw- I am so SURE God Almighty knows EXACTLY which pitch corresponds to say, 666Hz!!!

It would be a nice coincidence if the D# above A440 corresponded to 666, because D# = Dis = Dante's City of Hell



Unfortunately, it doesn't, not quite. The E above is more like it. But I did find a link to 'the tuning fork of the beast'....

[DavidW]

Luke, you're all set up to write a Dan Brown-esque novel!

[Luke]

A fine idea! Title ideas, anyone? I'm thinking Discord, something on those lines.....? No - it would have to be something more like The Pythagoras Anomaly. And - anyone noticed that a tuning fork = a pitchfork. Spooky, huh? The novel will write itself! 

[jochanaan]

...And - anyone noticed that a tuning fork = a pitchfork...

Actually, they're not equal.  A tuning fork has two tines; a pitchfork, at least three.

[Scarpia]

A fine idea! Title ideas, anyone? I'm thinking Discord, something on those lines.....? No - it would have to be something more like The Pythagoras Anomaly. And - anyone noticed that a tuning fork = a pitchfork. Spooky, huh? The novel will write itself! 

I don't think even Dan Brown could come up with a reason that it would matter that A is 440 for some orchestras and 445 for some others.   

[jochanaan]

AAAaaaaaAaaAahhhHhHHHhhhhhhh.....



ok, here's part of the dilemma. I don't even know where to begin.

A) I'm not JUST talking about guitars, but, that's part of it.

B) I just can't believe that there is no standard for a note!!! I can understand, and I'll take the guitar as example, that just tuning it up or down a step doesn't really do anything, because the player is still fretting the same frets and playing the "same" notes,...right? So, no matter what the tuning, if the tune is in A, the player just plays in "A" position/style (whether the fifth, open string is intoning at 415, 444, or 466). Do you follow?

This is madness!!



I have never never been able to connect my "inner" template with the Keys, as regards to my singing voice, when I am writing a song. I have transposed some songs I've written so many times, trying to get the "pocket", that I psyche myself out to the point I don't know what I'm doing.

At this point, I feel that I've got my "pocket" to about the "B minor" on a standard 440-ish. I can nail the high note in "B minor", haha, or, in anything that I can relate to that high note (f#).

When playing guitar, I have NEVER used "drop down" tuning (Eb, or D), because I have always felt that that just confuses the issue even further. I do admit that those rare times I have done it, it does work just fine, but, I'd rather just play the Eb in the standard tuning, just to keep things simple.

Transposing can be a chore.



Well, this topic is just so tremendously exciting, and terrifying, to me. Uncertain tones are horrifying.



btw- I am so SURE God Almighty knows EXACTLY which pitch corresponds to say, 666Hz!!!

Do you have perfect pitch too?  It can be both a blessing and a curse.  The resurrection of "period tuning" has made things very interesting for me as a listener: some of the French PI groups sound a WHOLE step flat to me, and most of the others sound a half-step flat!

[DavidW]

I don't think even Dan Brown could come up with a reason that it would matter that A is 440 for some orchestras and 445 for some others.   

Unless the illuminati send their secret message that it's time for a meeting at VPO concerts they chime a tuning fork at 440 to create a beat frequency...

[canninator]

When playing guitar, I have NEVER used "drop down" tuning (Eb, or D), because I have always felt that that just confuses the issue even further. I do admit that those rare times I have done it, it does work just fine, but, I'd rather just play the Eb in the standard tuning, just to keep things simple.

I don't know what style of guitar you play but D major is pretty guitar friendly so I'm surprised you would never have dropped your low E. Some pieces use some pretty wacky scordatura but are often notated for standard tuning to make them easier to play. Domeniconi's Koyunbaba springs to mind which can be tuned to DADADF or C#G#C#G#C#E. Tuning your G down to F# is also pretty common when playing some older repertoire.

[snyprrr]

I don't know what style of guitar you play but D major is pretty guitar friendly so I'm surprised you would never have dropped your low E. Some pieces use some pretty wacky scordatura but are often notated for standard tuning to make them easier to play. Domeniconi's Koyunbaba springs to mind which can be tuned to DADADF or C#G#C#G#C#E. Tuning your G down to F# is also pretty common when playing some older repertoire.

No, dropping just the bass note is just dropping the bass note. That I can do.

Honestly, as I'm writing this, and thinking about this tuning dilemma, I'm starting to feel sea sick, ...yes, literally, because I'm imagining the open guitar strings on a whammy bar,... back and forth,...back and forth,...ulp ,...

I don't have perfect pitch, and there's probably a real good reason for it. I probably don't have the temperament for it. I do hear that you can learn it though.

I remember a guy who could tell me what tone the kitchen counter was, haha!



Anecdote: all of this Thread came to a head when I wanted to play Elton John's Someone Saved My Life Tonight. First I had to transpose the whole thing a 4th, and then, as my voice,..eh,...tried to fit the large range of the song (even in my "own" key), I had to shift the whole song even further,... to the point where I could sing half the song in one key, and half in another .

ACK!!!

I have had to learn my own songs in 2-3 different keys, just in case my voice drops, and I can't reach those high notes. Still "B/F#" seems to be my "pole".



This whole topic makes me exhausted. I really think you can psyche yourself into a real problem of confidence in this area. AS A,..uh,...MUSICIAN, I think this is a very important topic, especially for those who "suffer" as I do.

Remember, I AM one of those people who thinks there is a link between the "number" 444, the "color" corresponding to 444cps, and the "tone" corresponding to 444. I can see why Scriabin lost it!

btw- 666 is actually a very interesting number, scientifically speaking.



I mean, what if a tone corresponds to a Prime Number? What, that tone can't be divided?

If "A" is 444,... is "A" also 222, 888, 111???



Seriously, this constipates my thinking. Hopefully going to work will be simpler, haha. later,...

[jochanaan]

I don't have perfect pitch, and there's probably a real good reason for it. I probably don't have the temperament for it.

Hey, nice word play there! 

I do hear that you can learn it though.

I've heard of programs that supposedly teach it; let's just say I have my doubts.

...Anecdote: all of this Thread came to a head when I wanted to play Elton John's Someone Saved My Life Tonight. First I had to transpose the whole thing a 4th, and then, as my voice,..eh,...tried to fit the large range of the song (even in my "own" key), I had to shift the whole song even further,... to the point where I could sing half the song in one key, and half in another .

ACK!!!

I have had to learn my own songs in 2-3 different keys, just in case my voice drops, and I can't reach those high notes. Still "B/F#" seems to be my "pole".

Sounds to me like you need to work on expanding your vocal range.  You know about diaphragm breathing, and to keep your throat muscles relaxed, yes?

I mean, what if a tone corresponds to a Prime Number? What, that tone can't be divided?

Sure it can!  Lots of tones have frequencies that can't be counted in whole numbers.

If "A" is 444,... is "A" also 222, 888, 111???

Yes--in different octaves.

[Scarpia]

I mean, what if a tone corresponds to a Prime Number? What, that tone can't be divided?

The second is an arbitrary time unit, so there no no significance to there being a whole number of cycles per second.  There is no reason that tones can't have a fractional number of cycles per second.