SPF: Ravel vs. Grieg vs. R. Strauss vs. Elgar vs. Rachmaninoff

[Brian]

My Ravel top 5 favorites! (which changes constantly)
5. String Quartet
4. Daphnis et Chloe (complete)
3. Sonatine for piano
2. Piano Concerto
1. La valse

(Hon. Mention: Mother Goose, Pavane, orchestral Alborada del Gracioso. Things I haven't heard yet: all his other chamber music, L'enfante et les sortileges, piano Miroirs. Things I don't care much for: Bolero, Tzigane. Things I don't like: Valses nobles et sentimentales.)

[MN Dave]

To me, Ravel is a superb craftsman with excellent taste--a perfectionist.

[Scarpia]

Things I don't like: Valses nobles et sentimentales.)

This might help

[Brian]

Heh, I am listening to that Gaspard as we speak!

[bhodges]

To me, Ravel is a superb craftsman with excellent taste--a perfectionist.

Yes, I agree--as well as a ravishing orchestrator.  One thing that seems to be sometimes overlooked in Boléro, for example, is Ravel's expert use of different timbres to heighten tension and maintain interest.  I love the combination of horn, piccolo and celesta used about halfway through.  And when I heard it again recently, the piece struck me as a bunch of "mini-concertos," all strung together. 

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

I like the Boléro, and it surprised me to find this album entirely listenable, some ten (?) different versions on a single disc:

[Luke]

Really?!? Fascinating. He was my easy first cut!! Profound soundworld is not what comes to my mind on Ravel - although it's not so much that I dislike him, but rather I just like the others so much more. I am really surprised that so many people put him so high. Perhaps you (and anyone else who is interested) could go a little deeper into what attracts you to him? I have four discs with orchestral pieces on two and piano on the other two. Perhaps I am missing something in his chamber pieces (although chamber is not always my faborite)? I've even played Bolero, so he is not exactly foreign to me either. I'm not trying to knock those who like him, just want to better understand what it is I may be missing.

To me, Ravel is more sensitive and affecting than almost any other composer - and it's partly because there is this sheen and polish to his music which makes the perception of the heart beating underneath all the more powerful. There's a dark, anguished undertone to Ravel which breaks through sometimes in the most turbulent ways, but it's always in control and most of the time we just sense it under the surface. The oft-discussed love of automata, toys, machines, fairy stories, exotica, etc. etc. are masks behind which lurk passions and insecurities as great as any in music, I think; the intense yearning for childhood and innocence are the flip-side of this. That's why pieces like Ma mere l'oye are so much more than they seem - why its last section is so affirmative and yet so valedictory, I think. And of course his masterpiece opera L'enfant et les sortileges, after the pastiches and orchestral wizardry are past, is heartbreakingly touching in its final bars. I don't mind saying that I never cry whilst listening to music - except with this piece, which moves me to tears every time! I choke up even thinking about it! Ravel is just full to the brim of moments like these, however - moments of the most touching catharsis, all held under control which makes them the more affecting (as in Beahms or Mozart...)

Elsewhere there is a demonism, somethink dark and troubling which, paradoxically and disturbingly, Ravel is able to turn into the most compelling and compulsive music - I'm thinking of the left hand piano concerto above all, and of Le Gibet, Scarbo, La Valse, especially as it whirls to its own destruction...

But you're right, the chamber music contains much of the best of Ravel - the Piano Trio, so rich and complex and radiant-dark; the light and lucid violin sonata, the compact, terse duo sonata for violin + cello... and the songs!! The Mallarme songs with ensemble, moving from ultra-lucid extreme impressionism to a Schoenbergian complexity; the Madagascan songs (also with ensemble), erotic, sensuous, angry; the Histoires naturelles, maybe his best songs..

well, enough! To me Ravel's most popular pieces - Bolero, Daphnis - are the ones I listen to least, because I find them comparatively impersonal. It's the Concerti, the later chamber music, the two operas, Ma mere l'oye, the piano music, the ensemble songs, that I come back to over and over...

[Bulldog]

Ravel at the top - Grieg at the bottom.  The other three are closer to Ravel than Grieg.

[DavidW]

Ravel at the top, the others are distant seconds.  From delicate rhythmic sensibilities to beautiful melody to fantastic coloring Ravel puts those other composers in the dust!

R. Strauss simply bores me.

[Brian]

I've just listened to two Ravel works I'd never heard before - violin sonata in G and Sheherazade - and they're just stunning. Glad I voted for him. Why didn't anyone tell me Sheherazade is an out-and-out masterpiece before?

[MN Dave]

Yes, I agree--as well as a ravishing orchestrator.

yes!

[Mirror Image]

Ravel is in my top 5 favorite composers, so perhaps my choice is a little biased? 

But seriously, I adore Ravel. Everything about his music. The rhythms, those lovely chord voicings, the remarkable command he had of the orchestra (his writing for the woodwinds is some of the best I've heard from any composer), the attention to detail, the whole aura of his music just mesmerizes and enchants me. He was one of the first composers I got into that seriously made me sit up and listen. Ravel is easily my favorite French composer.

[Mirror Image]

R. Strauss simply bores me.

I used to have a soft spot for Strauss' music, but he leaves me cold these days. I hardly listen to him much anymore.

[mc ukrneal]

To me, Ravel is more sensitive and affecting than almost any other composer - and it's partly because there is this sheen and polish to his music which makes the perception of the heart beating underneath all the more powerful. There's a dark, anguished undertone to Ravel which breaks through sometimes in the most turbulent ways, but it's always in control and most of the time we just sense it under the surface. The oft-discussed love of automata, toys, machines, fairy stories, exotica, etc. etc. are masks behind which lurk passions and insecurities as great as any in music, I think; the intense yearning for childhood and innocence are the flip-side of this. That's why pieces like Ma mere l'oye are so much more than they seem - why its last section is so affirmative and yet so valedictory, I think. And of course his masterpiece opera L'enfant et les sortileges, after the pastiches and orchestral wizardry are past, is heartbreakingly touching in its final bars. I don't mind saying that I never cry whilst listening to music - except with this piece, which moves me to tears every time! I choke up even thinking about it! Ravel is just full to the brim of moments like these, however - moments of the most touching catharsis, all held under control which makes them the more affecting (as in Beahms or Mozart...)

Elsewhere there is a demonism, somethink dark and troubling which, paradoxically and disturbingly, Ravel is able to turn into the most compelling and compulsive music - I'm thinking of the left hand piano concerto above all, and of Le Gibet, Scarbo, La Valse, especially as it whirls to its own destruction...

But you're right, the chamber music contains much of the best of Ravel - the Piano Trio, so rich and complex and radiant-dark; the light and lucid violin sonata, the compact, terse duo sonata for violin + cello... and the songs!! The Mallarme songs with ensemble, moving from ultra-lucid extreme impressionism to a Schoenbergian complexity; the Madagascan songs (also with ensemble), erotic, sensuous, angry; the Histoires naturelles, maybe his best songs..

well, enough! To me Ravel's most popular pieces - Bolero, Daphnis - are the ones I listen to least, because I find them comparatively impersonal. It's the Concerti, the later chamber music, the two operas, Ma mere l'oye, the piano music, the ensemble songs, that I come back to over and over...

Thanks for that. Really appreciated. I admittedly had forgotten about the left hand concerto, which is a remarkable piece indeed. And I will try to keep some of what you said in mind when I next get a chance to listen to Ravel (hopefully this weekend).

[rappy]

From delicate rhythmic sensibilities to beautiful melody to fantastic coloring Ravel puts those other composers in the dust!

R. Strauss simply bores me.

Astonishing, because all the things you mention, one can find in Strauss' music too!

[greg]

Interesting clump of five, Dave . . . for me, Grieg, R. Strauss & Elgar aren't even in the running (compared to Ravel or Rakhmaninov) . . . and to decide between Ravel and Rakhmaninov is a Gordian knot.

I suppose I must vote Rakhmaninov.

Of course, it's just a Silly Poll . . . .

I actually agree with this whole post.

[Scarpia]

I suppose I must vote Rakhmaninov.

interesting choice, Mr. Henyng

[MN Dave]

Astonishing, because all the things you mention, one can find in Strauss' music too!

I find Strauss heavier.

[Guido]

My head says Ravel, my heart says Strauss. Luke's post sums it up beautifully above (as per usual), and I agree that Strauss is maddeningly inconsistent, but at his best (i.e. soprano with orchestra, when the text and situation move him) there are few things I like more in music. That said, Ravel is also one of my absolute favourites - Madagascan Songs, Left Hand piano concerto, piano trio, Miroirs... all are on my desert island.

(And your post has reminded me of a thread I was going to start!)

[Octo_Russ]

For me it's Rachmaninov, i love the piano, and of course Rachmaninov wrote for it well, the 24 Preludes and the Etudes Tableaux are endlessly fascinating.