The Second Viennese School in the 21st Century: Still New?

[karlhenning]

Also, you've got the wrong end of the telescope to your eye. You're taking the achievements of the mature Beethoven as a driver for admiration even of his juvenilia.

[Brian]

What about the works i listed, which were all written before the his 30th birthday? Surely the opus 13 at least would have been enough to place him on the "tragic" list of geniuses who didn't get the chance to see their talents flourish to their fullest.

To be fair.

If Beethoven had lived to complete and publish Opp. 53-59 (Waldstein, Eroica, Concerto in G, Razumovsky) and then died suddenly at age 35, I think that the evidence of Symphony No 3, Concerto No 4, sonatas 21-23 and string quartets 7-9 WOULD have been sufficient to make him a "tragic genius who didn't get the chance."

On the other hand: what sort of unimaginable greatness was Op 136 going to contain?

[karlhenning]

To be fair.

If Beethoven had lived to complete and publish Opp. 53-59 (Waldstein, Eroica, Concerto in G, Razumovsky) and then died suddenly at age 35, I think that the evidence of Symphony No 3, Concerto No 4, sonatas 21-23 and string quartets 7-9 WOULD have been sufficient to make him a "tragic genius who didn't get the chance."

Aye.

[Josquin des Prez]

You're still pointlessly obsessed with the notion of a child prodigy.

Just when it comes to Beethoven.  0:)

But seriously, when have i ever obsessed with the notion of a child prodigy? Have you forgotten all the times i've chastised Saul for making that fallacy? The point is that the spark of genius sometimes is evident even in lesser works because genius is not something Beethoven picked up along way. It was always an innate quality he carried within himself which he only learned to express late in life. There's also the fact that much of his work during his late 20s was scaled down on purpose, to allow Beethoven to iron out his technique before daring to commit to any of his revolutionary ideas (didn't Beethoven himself admit to as such? I cannot recall the exact quote), which didn't just appear overnight after his 30th birthday. His opus 13 and 18 already foreshadow much of what was to come.

[Josquin des Prez]

To be fair.

If Beethoven had lived to complete and publish Opp. 53-59 (Waldstein, Eroica, Concerto in G, Razumovsky) and then died suddenly at age 35, I think that the evidence of Symphony No 3, Concerto No 4, sonatas 21-23 and string quartets 7-9 WOULD have been sufficient to make him a "tragic genius who didn't get the chance."

On the other hand: what sort of unimaginable greatness was Op 136 going to contain?

His opus 1 alone would have been enough to place him above your average composer of the time, though not exactly in the realm of genius.

[Josquin des Prez]

Hint: Beethoven himself did not publish the piece.[/font]

Actually, i'm not sure that means what you think it means. Beethoven wasn't shy of publishing lesser works (or conversely, not publish actually good works, like the variations in c, WoO 80).

[karlhenning]

It's probably officially time to remark that just because no composer in our day occupies a Space comparable to that which Beethoven occupied in his, does not mean that there are no geniuses of composition now alive.

[snyprrr]

Now (as must be apparent from the Wuorinen remark I cited) we agree that you can't shatter boundaries when there are none. That does not at all mean that composers whose work does not include boundary-shattering have nothing to say that is actually worth saying anymore.

What am I saying if, in the middle of a 30min, Feldmanesque elegy, I put 60secs of New Orleans Funeral Music? Is it something WORTH saying?

What is WORTH saying in this day and age?



If I write a piece where klezmer music is "murdered" by the tune "doitchland uber alles", will people know what I'm saying? What if klezmer music is destroying the US national anthem?

This is the only kind of dangerous music left.



If I write a perfectly traditional piece, but stipulate that it HAS to be played by an orchestra of gay lovers?

hey, that's not a bad idea,... I'd be a media darling!







As an aside:

I want the flippin NAMES of the composers we are talking about. WHO is Wuorinen talking about? Ford (again?)? I WANT THE NAMES!!!! Are we so afraid to say that someone TOTALLY SUCKS?

Does NO ONE totally suck??? Is everyone valid???

There is no glut?

Why then all the rancor?



The only things you can do to make 'revolutionary music' is invoke jews or gays,...it has nothing to do with the notes anymore. MUSIC HAS BEEN CO-OPTED, just like every other artistic endeavour these days. Everything you do will still be brought before the 'council'.



Karl, can you tell me what it is that these young composers are 'saying' that is so full of 'worth'? What is Kernis actually 'saying'?

If, what you're saying is, "I'm a Gay Composer", does THAT count?? Does that count as discourse?

I'm a Muslin (m,...haha) Composer.

I'm a Tatar Composer.



I'm a serial, gay, anti-semetic, filipino, post-op, vegan, gun totin', black, fat trust fund Composer!

What WILL I say?

What CAN I say?



What is all this about "having something to say"

Maybe I'll know it when I hear it?


Why hasn't anyone linked to a piece by one of these "composers" so that WE can judge?

Are we NOT ALLOWED to "judge"?

I know that "judging" people is out of style in this feel good time we live in. Will I be dismissed if I judge? Do I have to accept everything as a precious jewel?



WHO is this hidden genius that NO ONE has named yet?






NAMES
NAMES
NAMES

WORKS
WORKS
WORKS


like,...

"I think Zev Shimansky's Gay&Black Holocaust Requiem is a Modern Masterpiece. Here is the YouTube clip."

Where are the examples, so we can LEARN something?? This is a MUSIC forum, right? Some flippin examples for judgment please.   I'm waiting for Modern Genius.


I'm waiting....

[karlhenning]

Karl, can you tell me what it is that these young composers are 'saying' that is so full of 'worth'?

Well, I cannot presume to speak for any composer else.  For myself, I write what I believe is music which has that to say, which only my music can say.

[Josquin des Prez]

You are not a young composer Karl, this doesn't concern you. 

[karlhenning]

What am I saying if, in the middle of a 30min, Feldmanesque elegy, I put 60secs of New Orleans Funeral Music? Is it something WORTH saying?

Proposing a caricature, is not proving an assertion, of course.

As an aside:

I want the flippin NAMES of the composers we are talking about. WHO is Wuorinen talking about? Ford (again?)? I WANT THE NAMES!!!! Are we so afraid to say that someone TOTALLY SUCKS?

I cannot speak for Charles; I wonder whom he might mean, too . . . there is, after all, the odd chance that he is condemning a composer whose work I actually enjoy. ; )

Your last question there is one of frightful interest, really. Do you know Nicolas Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective? One of the lessons of that marvelously entertaining compendium is, that in every era there are plenty of people who are NOT afraid to declare that the new music sucks! Hurray for plain speaking!

Unfortunately for posterity's opinion of these plain-speaking opinionators, however, the new music whose arrant suckiness they were NOT afraid to trumpet from the rooftops, has turned out to be classics of the literature.

(Now, another lesson of Slonimsky's marvelous book is:  he did not trouble to record scoffing reviews of music history's also-rans. So we don't necessarily conclude that NONE of it sucks; only that the fact that someone is NOT AFRAID to say that new music sucks, is actually a next-to-completely unreliable indicator of artistic worth.)

[Josquin des Prez]

only that the fact that someone is NOT AFRAID to say that new music sucks, is actually a next-to-completely unreliable indicator of artistic worth.)[/font]

The problem is that people seem to be afraid of saying that modern music is actually great.

[Philoctetes]

The problem is that people seem to be afraid of saying that modern music is actually great.

Like any period, there is a fair amount of music that is fantastic, and a fair amount that is simply not. There's plenty of music that is worth listening too.

[Josquin des Prez]

Like any period, there is a fair amount of music that is fantastic, and a fair amount that is simply not. There's plenty of music that is worth listening too.

Name the fantastic music.

[Philoctetes]

Name the fantastic music.

I think many have already created lists for you.

[karlhenning]

Name the fantastic music.

In what time-frame?

[Philoctetes]

In what time-frame?

I'm assuming he means now.

Here's four:
Ingram Marshall
Joan Jeanrenaud
Daniel Roumain
Russell Pinkston

[Josquin des Prez]

Daniel Roumain

You are not talking about Daniel Bernard Roumain, are you? 

[Philoctetes]

You are not talking about Daniel Bernard Roumain, are you? 

That's him.

[Josquin des Prez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bPZuUsr3UA&feature=related

And this is supposed to represent the genius of our times? Have you people lost your marbles?