Way Beyond Atheism: God Does Not (Not) Exist

[MishaK]

From now on, let's make a mutual, conscious attempt to elevate the level of the discussion. Do you agree? 

Sorry, I didn't mean to be nasty. I guess tone is hard to read in a forum.  0:)

Hey, make at least a little effort, would you? My point was to contrast [...]
Let's dispense with the empiricism (I'd say relationships and listening to music have a lot to do with experience, but the specific act of liking... I don't know... but never mind)
Now, about rationality... There's the sense of something not being rational in that it doesn't involve the conscious and concrete exercise of reason (i.e. reasoning). In that sense I think it could be said that liking things or people is not rational. [...]On the other hand, believing -in the total absence of evidence- there's the soul, the afterlife, god, and moreover that this god wants something from us, listens to our prayers, etc can indeed be said to be highly not rational.

See, this undermines your whole empirical absolutism. You admit that humans aren't and cannot be entirely rational. QED.

You are (bona fides, I hope) mixing these two uses of "not rational", in a similar way believers often argue "well, you have faith in science!!!", thus equating the modest "faith" in the sense of "trust" or "reliance" in the many well demonstrated merits of science with "Faith" in god, "Faith" that Jesus will come back from Heaven, etc.

Please, don't use the terminology of religious people when talking about science. Science has got nothing to do with faith.

You This is a deal breaker. If you really think "Soul", "god", "afterlife" is just terminology for most believers then we are not even living in the same planet. Go to your nearest mosque and share this idea of yours with the congregation (bring plenty of Preparation H)

I don't believe in that stuff. I'm explaining it to you. Clearly, music and love touch something in you, too. Religion does the same for people of faith. Accept that not all people think and feel the same way you do.

You
I believe it's the same with religion. I SEE YOUR POINT (I think) but I respectfully disagree. I think the benefits of religion could be obtained without the fantasy.

Your mistake is to think that one size fits all. For you, with your upbringing, your experience, your emotional makeup, you don't need faith. Others do. It fills in a space that you fill with other things. That's fine. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone absolutely has to think the way you do. That would make you no different from evangelical proselytizers, who are likewise convinced that they must convert everyone to their only right and correct way of thinking. 

I think the sheer majority of religious people in the world are nothing like your super sophisticated Christian friends (and even they are ultimately deluding themselves)... OK, I think I sufficiently stated my opinion. 

I think the majority of believers are way too diverse to fit one description.

I'm gonna be out for the next week. So don't expect responses soon.

peace.

[Satzaroo]

Quite so. I was once a Jew and gave it up.

You gave up the Jewish religion, and did you forsake your Jewish cultural heritage as well?

[karlhenning]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be nasty. I guess tone is hard to read in a forum.  0:)

See, this undermines your whole empirical absolutism. You admit that humans aren't and cannot be entirely rational. QED.

Please, don't use the terminology of religious people when talking about science. Science has got nothing to do with faith.

I don't believe in that stuff. I'm explaining it to you. Clearly, music and love touch something in you, too. Religion does the same for people of faith. Accept that not all people think and feel the same way you do.

Your mistake is to think that one size fits all. For you, with your upbringing, your experience, your emotional makeup, you don't need faith. Others do. It fills in a space that you fill with other things. That's fine. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone absolutely has to think the way you do. That would make you no different from evangelical proselytizers, who are likewise convinced that they must convert everyone to their only right and correct way of thinking. 

I think the majority of believers are way too diverse to fit one description.

I'm gonna be out for the next week. So don't expect responses soon.

peace.

Fine post, thank you. And have a lovely holiday!

[Iconito]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be nasty. I guess tone is hard to read in a forum.  0:)

Tell me about it! I've been informed I come out here as some sort of execrable jerk, being the lovely guy I am

See, this undermines your whole empirical absolutism. You admit that humans aren't and cannot be entirely rational. QED.

Did you just ignore my distinction between two very different uses of  "rational"?   (not that I consider myself and empirical absolutist... Maybe I am; I don't know what that means)

Please, don't use the terminology of religious people when talking about science. Science has got nothing to do with faith.

I know! It's like you are not reading my posts. This is not going to work if you don't, Mensch

I don't believe in that stuff.

Again, I know! You said ""Soul", "god", "afterlife" - this is just terminology." I objected believers actually believe in that stuff (or some of that stuff, or some other supernatural stuff. Otherwise they wouldn't be believers, right?)

I'm explaining it to you. Clearly, music and love touch something in you, too. Religion does the same for people of faith.

Understood (I guess raping does the same for rapists. I'M NOT COMPARING raping to religion, of course, but "X is good for these people" doesn't automatically mean that X is OK or desirable.)

Accept that not all people think and feel the same way you do.

Completely known and accepted (but I can still speak my mind, can I?)

Your mistake is to think that one size fits all. For you, with your upbringing, your experience, your emotional makeup, you don't need faith. Others do. It fills in a space that you fill with other things. That's fine. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone absolutely has to think the way you do. That would make you no different from evangelical proselytizers, who are likewise convinced that they must convert everyone to their only right and correct way of thinking. 

I think the majority of believers are way too diverse to fit one description.

I certainly agree believers are way too diverse to fit one description. I only said they do have one thing in common: They believe! (as I said above) That's all I meant to say about that.

Look, you are telling me I should understand not everyone thinks like me and I should be more tolerant (if I can put it that way). I know that. This is a discussion board and I express my opinions freely, and my opinions on religion are nothing pretty... but that doesn't mean I go around burning churches in real life! I think I'm reasonably tolerant: Almost everyone around me is Catholic, even my wife, for crying out loud! (she's one of those Catholics who never step into a church except for weddings and funerals, but nonetheless she has her beliefs and I often have to deal with it and we are doing fine, so...)

I'm gonna be out for the next week. So don't expect responses soon.

Oh, you are for the most part not responding to what I really mean to say but something else so, take your time. 

peace.

Likewise!