Musical complexity

[greg]

But there are a few other pieces whose movements actually do all begin with the same motif:
Holst: Suite #1 for band
Hindemith: Symphony in E flat
Hanson: Symphony #6
There are probably more, but those are the ones that I can think of at the moment.

Cool... haven't listened to any of these before.

[some guy]

Good call, J. Each movement starts with a similar pizzacato figure, each one adds a legato tune to that, but the pitches of 1/4 are indeed a bit different from those of 2/3.

How about Rachmaninoff's 1st, then? Same little four note figure opens each movement.

[Sid]

I don't think that some guy's earlier post was "horse shit" (to use that very refined term). I think that all he was trying to say was that there is a strong element of subjectivity in any musical analysis. It often says more about who is making the analysis than the piece of music (or art) itself. & I think you have to take different pieces of music on different terms. If it's electronica or turntable music, you're not going to be able to approach it the same way as you do something from the standard orchestral repertoire. There are many ways of listening to music...

[Josquin des Prez]

What an absurd statement, but fitting seeing who wrote it. 

Its only absurd if you don't understand Bach. I mean, really understand him. Only late Beethoven seems to compare. Other composers have achieved similar levels of brilliance, but not to such a relentless extended. Bach is the only composer that still makes me scratch my head at the sheer impossibility of some of the stuff he does.

[Scarpia]

I think that all he was trying to say was that there is a strong element of subjectivity in any musical analysis.

You think I don't know that?  We only have a few fools here that don't find that statement obvious.  I would also call "horse shit" a posts that calls me out for not knowing the sky is blue or that the sun rises in the east.

[Sid]

You think I don't know that?  We only have a few fools here that don't find that statement obvious.  I would also call "horse shit" a posts that calls me out for not knowing the sky is blue or that the sun rises in the east.

I wasn't rude to you, so why make it personal & be rude to me? You are one nice fellow for sure...NOT!!!

[jochanaan]

Cool... haven't listened to any of these before.

They're all worth hearing--especially the Hindemith: one of the greatest 20th-century symphonies, and it doesn't get nearly enough play!  The only recording I know of is the classic Leonard Bernstein/NYP recording.

How about Rachmaninoff's 1st, then? Same little four note figure opens each movement.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten that one!

[Mirror Image]

Its only absurd if you don't understand Bach. I mean, really understand him. Only late Beethoven seems to compare. Other composers have achieved similar levels of brilliance, but not to such a relentless extended. Bach is the only composer that still makes me scratch my head at the sheer impossibility of some of the stuff he does.

I guess I don't understand Bach as well as many here do, but I have acknowledged that he's one of the most influential composers of all-time, but I guess it's the music itself that I'm not enthralled with. I understand his importance and, again, this is something I have acknowledged for quite some time. I prefer the Italian and French composers in Baroque music over the Germans. Vivaldi, Corelli, Locatelli, Rameau, Scarlatti (father and son), Albinoni, Tartini, Rebel are my to-go-to Baroque composers.

[Ugh]

Eugene, nice to see you back! (Or at least, it seems that you're back. Maybe you never left, and I just haven't been following the same threads you've been posting to.)

Anyway, it seems to me that, "mutually exclusive" or not, all pieces have something admirable about their craftsmanship. And all pieces have something memorable about them, thematic, melodic or otherwise.

I stop by at least twice a year  The manners displayed by some in this thread reminds me why I don't visit more often...

Anyway, taken as an approach in listening to music or any sound, or even as an approach to life in general, your statement is evidently true. And as for complexity, I did not attempt to define the term more closely precisely because any evaluation of complexity only makes sense within a certain perspective. I.e.: The tape compositions of Pierre Schaeffer and the fugues of Bach are both complex in their own right, requiring craftmanship in quite different respects (i.e. tape splicing technique, field recording, cataloging skills vs notation skills and mastery of harmony, etc.). Of course, if one's idea of musical complexity is based on the latter, Schaeffer's works are likely to be dismissed as, well, horseshit, to paraphrase Scarpia. Basic hermenutics.

That said, I referred to Bartok's string quartets in the opening post because in this particular thread I was looking for musical complexity in a more traditional sense. That was a few days ago, right now I am listening to Henry Cow live in Oslo 

[Dax]

Here's Medtner's 2nd piano concerto on youtube played by the composer. There is also a Demidenko version, but for once, his account seems less informative and reliable than others.

part 1 - http://il.youtube.com/user/nonnon86#p/c/07F0BAD0AF8BCA78/4/IHd-BzkJaMU
part 2 - http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=vWrfTyQaDsE&feature=related
part 3 - http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=7nceaLZdOz4&feature=related
part 4 - http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=En42kYkzbdw&feature=related
part 5 - http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=pCY_SHF_Wos&feature=related

[Scarpia]

I wasn't rude to you, so why make it personal & be rude to me? You are one nice fellow for sure...NOT!!!

I find rude refreshing after smug, self-satisfied, condescending.

[Scarpia]

Actually, Bruckner 5 doesn't quite do this.  The first and fourth movement open the same way, but that's because Bruckner is using Beethoven's device of recalling earlier themes merely as a bridge to the finale; the second and third open with the same motif; but the first and second examples are not at all the same.

But there are a few other pieces whose movements actually do all begin with the same motif:
Holst: Suite #1 for band
Hindemith: Symphony in E flat
Hanson: Symphony #6
There are probably more, but those are the ones that I can think of at the moment.

You can add to that list the Stravinsky Violin concerto (more of a chord than a theme, but placed at the start of each movement).   I seem to remember another example that I can't quite put my finger on, something by Rubbra, maybe.  Maybe just my memory playing tricks.

[Sid]

I find rude refreshing after smug, self-satisfied, condescending.

No one is forcing you to read my posts. Just put me on your ignore list, if you have a problem. BTW, I would rather write "horseshit" that be rude to people. I think that the pot is calling the kettle black here...

[snyprrr]

I guess this isn't the Ferneyhough Thread?

[Mirror Image]

No one is forcing you to read my posts. Just put me on your ignore list, if you have a problem. BTW, I would rather write "horseshit" that be rude to people. I think that the pot is calling the kettle black here...

Don't worry about, Scarpia, Sid. He doesn't know what he's going to type one minute to the next, but rest assured, it's going to be either something rude to another member or it's going to be about a recording, which he probably hasn't even heard, that he hates. I put him on ignore shortly after I joined this forum.

[Scarpia]

Don't worry about, Scarpia, Sid. He doesn't know what he's going to type one minute to the next, but rest assured, it's going to be either something rude to another member or it's going to be about a recording, which he probably hasn't even heard, that he hates. I put him on ignore shortly after I joined this forum.

Odd that MI has been ignoring me since he first joined the forum, yet he knows exactly what I post.  Sounds like a crock.  Fortunately MI is ignoring me and I can say whatever I want about him.   

[Gurn Blanston]

It's always a pleasure to see mature adults acting like mature adults. Understanding diversity of opinion and means of expression, that sort of thing. Even making allowances for a different perception of the topic.

Pity there isn't much of that going on here right now. Be a nice thing if you lads would stop a reread some of your posts before you push the send key. Imagine, if you will, that we are sitting around a table sipping coffee and some of that stuff came out of your mouths, well, it probably wouldn't, would it?

Let's not ruin the topic with petty personal stuff, eh?



----------------
Now playing:
Spanyi (Tangentenflügel)\ Petofi & Paulik (Violins)\ Bozzai (Viola) - Edelmann Op 09 #4 Quartet in D for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Avec vivacite

[petrarch]

I guess this isn't the Ferneyhough Thread?

I confess I opened this thread hoping that it was...

[Bulldog]

But yes, I too love the complexity in this type of music, I especially like how a theme is worked over very rigorously in a single piece...

Same here, which is a major reason why I'm always impressed with Bach's AoF.

[jochanaan]

You can add to that list the Stravinsky Violin concerto (more of a chord than a theme, but placed at the start of each movement).   I seem to remember another example that I can't quite put my finger on, something by Rubbra, maybe.  Maybe just my memory playing tricks.

I'd forgotten the Stravinsky too! And I'm ashamed to say that I'm not familiar with Rubbra's music although, given my tastes, I should be.