Composers That Are Linked To Your Soul

[karlhenning]

ROTFLOL

[jowcol]

At least one: Carmen.   

Boris Godunov and Khovanschina for me would also be dramatically convincing, although I can't lay claim to knowing the repertoire that deeply.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Are any operas dramatically convincing?  And what does this have to do with liking the music?

Yes, many. The Monteverdi and the mature Mozart operas to start, Meistersinger, Tristan, the Ring, Boris, Fidelio, Boccanegra, Carmen, Don Carlo, Otello, Falstaff, Moses und Aron, Wozzeck, Lulu, the Janacek operas, many others. A great many convincing operas, in fact, are based on librettos that are not original works of drama or theater but are instead adapted from previously existing literary or dramatic works. (Der Rosenkavalier is one of the exceptions.) And as far as "the music" goes, opera is not a strictly musical form. It is a dramatic art in which music is used to create character and mood, and to shape and articulate the action. As Joseph Kerman argued in Opera as Drama in 1956, in the most successful operas, music fills an analogous fucntion to poetry in spoken drama, such as the Greek tragedies and Shakespeare.

[(poco) Sforzando]

At least one: Carmen.   

That is a very good choice, and of course the opera was based on Prosper Merimée's novella of the same name. I would argue, though, that Carmen herself is not the central character in the opera; instead, the main character is José, who in an almost perfect Aristotelian tragic arch begins as a good and well-meaning man and gradually destroys himself through his obsession with Carmen - whom in fact we are never given to know beyond the obvious fascination she exercises on men. In her enigmatic amorality, Carmen is (despite the great differences in musical styles) a 19th-century counterpart to Lulu, another femme fatale who causes her (many more) male admirers to sacrifice themselves while trying to attain her love. (And now that I think about it, Turandot also falls into this pattern, and perhaps one reason it is so unconvincing dramatically is the Ice Princess's sudden and barely motivated reversal midway through Act Three.)

[Scarpia]

(And now that I think about it, Turandot also falls into this pattern, and perhaps one reason it is so unconvincing dramatically is the Ice Princess's sudden and barely motivated reversal midway through Act Three.)

That seems to be a characteristic of the genre, to some extent, the sudden changes in characters.  Othello is perhaps my favorite play by Shakespeare, and although I love the Verdi adaption, I am vexed by the fact that excruciatingly gradual erosion of Othello's trust that occurs in the play turns into a sudden flip from love and trust to hatred and mistrust in the opera. 

[DavidRoss]

Yes, many. The Monteverdi and the mature Mozart operas to start, Meistersinger, Tristan, the Ring, Boris, Fidelio, Boccanegra, Carmen, Don Carlo, Otello, Falstaff, Moses und Aron, Wozzeck, Lulu, the Janacek operas, many others. A great many convincing operas, in fact, are based on librettos that are not original works of drama or theater but are instead adapted from previously existing literary or dramatic works. (Der Rosenkavalier is one of the exceptions.) And as far as "the music" goes, opera is not a strictly musical form. It is a dramatic art in which music is used to create character and mood, and to shape and articulate the action. As Joseph Kerman argued in Opera as Drama in 1956, in the most successful operas, music fills an analogous fucntion to poetry in spoken drama, such as the Greek tragedies and Shakespeare.

So if you're "convinced" by those, why can't someone else be "convinced" by Puccini's works?

[(poco) Sforzando]

So if you're "convinced" by those, why can't someone else be "convinced" by Puccini's works?

That's quite a reversal from the apparently rhetorical question "Are any operas dramatically convincing?" (Emphasis mine, but I believe implied.) I'm sure anybody can be convinced of anything they like; after all, there are a great many people convinced that evolution has no justification and that Barack Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. I am, however, prepared to defend any of the choices I have listed in my previous post, as well as to explain why I find some of Puccini's works dramatically unsatisfactory.

[DavidRoss]

That's quite a reversal from the apparently rhetorical question "Are any operas dramatically convincing?" (Emphasis mine, but I believe implied.) I'm sure anybody can be convinced of anything they like; after all, there are a great many people convinced that evolution has no justification and that Barack Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. I am, however, prepared to defend any of the choices I have listed in my previous post, as well as to explain why I find some of Puccini's works dramatically unsatisfactory.

You responded by listing operas that you consider "dramatically convincing."  Your statements above about the subjectivity of convictions, and your offer to explain your responses to selected operas, reinforces my point that "dramatic conviction" resides in the viewer, not the work.  Interesting to discuss, however, why you or I or others think we respond to certain things in certain ways.  Hopefully we may help expand one another's understanding or ability to appreciate things by such exchanges...usually more likely if we treat one another with mutual respect and courtesy, and refrain from inferring that our personal response determines objective reality and that those who don't share this belief are moronic Philistines.

"Dramatic conviction" may be a significant factor for some in the opera audience, but not significant at all for others.  I enjoy the music and to some extent the pagentry, often the humor, but don't require dramatic conviction to enjoy something like Cosi, dramatically ridiculous but musically sublime.

[AndyD.]

"Linked to my soul". That's heavy (laughing).

I'm predictable:

Richard Wagner
Ludwig Van Beethoven
J.S. Bach

Other:
Ritchie Blackmore
Uli Jon Roth
Tony Iommi

[Guido]

You responded by listing operas that you consider "dramatically convincing."  Your statements above about the subjectivity of convictions, and your offer to explain your responses to selected operas, reinforces my point that "dramatic conviction" resides in the viewer, not the work.  Interesting to discuss, however, why you or I or others think we respond to certain things in certain ways.  Hopefully we may help expand one another's understanding or ability to appreciate things by such exchanges...usually more likely if we treat one another with mutual respect and courtesy, and refrain from inferring that our personal response determines objective reality and that those who don't share this belief are moronic Philistines.

"Dramatic conviction" may be a significant factor for some in the opera audience, but not significant at all for others.  I enjoy the music and to some extent the pagentry, often the humor, but don't require dramatic conviction to enjoy something like Cosi, dramatically ridiculous but musically sublime.

This rampant relativism is one of the trials of our time.

Cosi is a strange one and certainly not as dramatically effective as say The Magic Flute, or Don Giovanni or (most perfect of all) Figaro. It's extraordinary subtle and complicated though and has an atmosphere that is quite bewitching (as you say - this comes from the music)... quite an elusive work.

[Florestan]

That is a very good choice, and of course the opera was based on Prosper Merimée's novella of the same name. I would argue, though, that Carmen herself is not the central character in the opera; instead, the main character is José, who in an almost perfect Aristotelian tragic arch begins as a good and well-meaning man and gradually destroys himself through his obsession with Carmen - whom in fact we are never given to know beyond the obvious fascination she exercises on men.

We are in complete agreement.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Hopefully we may help expand one another's understanding or ability to appreciate things by such exchanges...usually more likely if we treat one another with mutual respect and courtesy, and refrain from inferring that our personal response determines objective reality and that those who don't share this belief are moronic Philistines.

Then you'll have to decide if you truly want to "expand each other's understanding," or if you prefer just being touchy whenever anyone has the temerity to disagree with you. And if there is validity in your point that "'dramatic conviction" resides in the viewer, not the work, then you'll have to admit that to label Così as "dramatically ridiculous" resides in you, and not (despite your apparently absolute statement) in Così. Suffice it to say that there a number of sensitive analyses of the dramatic structure of Così fan Tutte that question the dismissive judgment that it is "dramatically ridiculous." Guido, for one, finds it "subtle and complicated."

[DavidRoss]

touchy whenever anyone has the temerity to disagree with you.

Say what?  If so, I would surely like to know.  If you would be so kind as to provide examples so I can understand the basis for this claim and recognize its merit, I would be very grateful!  (And of course you may pm so as not to subject all others to an off topic discussion solely for my own benefit out of the goodness of your heart!)

And if there is validity in your point that "'dramatic conviction" resides in the viewer, not the work, then you'll have to admit that to label Così as "dramatically ridiculous" resides in you,

Of course!

and not (despite your apparently absolute statement) in Così. Suffice it to say that there a number of sensitive analyses of the dramatic structure of Così fan Tutte that question the dismissive judgment that it is "dramatically ridiculous." Guido, for one, finds it "subtle and complicated."

Others may believe that the sisters are such dolts that they cannot recognize their own beloved fiancées when dressed as Albanians.  [This statement has nothing to do with Guido nor his observation, as he will doubtless recognize but which others may misinterpret as some sort of prickly response suggesting something unfavorable about his character or intellect.  ]  I suspect I'm not the only audience member who finds this so dramatically absurd that I must intentionally suspend rational disbelief in order to enjoy the romp--which I do and which is part of the fun.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Say what?  If so, I would surely like to know.  If you would be so kind as to provide examples so I can understand the basis for this claim and recognize its merit, I would be very grateful!

Mr. Ross, on several occasions you have seemed to me touchy, and ready to jump to unfounded ad hominem conclusions concerning people's motives:

I suspect that most of the time when someone criticizes your choice of music as "not deep," he's really sneering and saying that he thinks he's better than you.

refrain from inferring that our personal response determines objective reality and that those who don't share this belief are moronic Philistines.

It's hard to read this as anything other than a malicious attempt to impugn my integrity.

Will these suffice, or should I do further research?

Others may believe that the sisters are such dolts that they cannot recognize their own beloved fiancées when dressed as Albanians. ... I suspect I'm not the only audience member who finds this so dramatically absurd that I must intentionally suspend rational disbelief.

No, you're not. A month ago I had an interchange with Springrite:

Quote from: springrite on December 13, 2010, 08:07:59 AM
Or all those where when one character changes cloth not even those intimate to him or her can recognize him/her. Cosi comes to mind but there are dozens more. Stories based on such silly mistaken identities bore me. I shall gladly take the music but spare me the stories.

Response from moi on December 14, 2010:
Just curious: do you consider Shakespearean comedy silly as well? Because mistaken identity is an essential component in many of them. For example, in Twelfth Night, Viola dresses as a man, calling herself Cesario, and is later mistaken for her twin brother Sebastian. I wouldn't be surprised if Shakespeare had at least one set of boy twins to play his female roles, as twinship is essential to the Comedy of Errors and Twelfth Night. As for mistaken identity, the virtuosic treatment is found in As You Like It, where the boy actor playing Rosalind disguises herself as a young man, and then later pretends to be a girl.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Orlando in As You Like It is a "dolt" because he fails to recognize that the boy Ganymede is really Rosalind, the girl he loves, in disguise. Or that Duke Orsino in Twelfth Night is a "dolt" because he fails to recognize that Cesario is actually a girl disguised as a boy. Mistaken identity and disguise are not confined to the comedies, however, the most obvious example being King Lear, where Lear is unable to recognize that Caius is actually the banished Earl of Kent in disguise; and where Gloucester is unable to recognize his own son Edgar playing the part of the madman Poor Tom, as well as several other roles Edgar assumes while assisting his blinded father. Are Lear and Gloucester "dolts" because they fail to penetrate the disguises of people they know extremely well?

Closer to our time, even though Nigel Bruce portrayed Dr. Watson as a doddering fool, that was not how Conan Doyle created the character (Watson was portrayed much more accurately in the Jeremy Brett television series). But on a number of occasions Sherlock Holmes was able to assume disguises that completely fooled Watson.

[DavidRoss]

I see this really is some kind of personal vendetta.  Too bad.  I had hoped you might have something helpful to share.  Oh well...good luck to you in all your endeavors, sir, and may God bless you.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I see this really is some kind of personal vendetta.  Too bad.  I had hoped you might have something helpful to share.  Oh well...good luck to you in all your endeavors, sir, and may God bless you.

Right. I answer the questions you asked, I spend time discussing literary treatment of mistaken identity in Shakespeare and Conan Doyle, and you see a vendetta. Got it.

[Florestan]

I spend time discussing literary treatment of mistaken identity in Shakespeare and Conan Doyle, and you see a vendetta.

A case of mistaken identity in itself...   

[Taneyev]

About Dr.Watson, after years of living in the same house with Holmes and knowing him as he knew him, only a fool could be confused and fail to recognized Holmes, even with a good  disguise.

[prémont]

I don't think anyone has suggested that Orlando in As You Like It is a "dolt" because he fails to recognize that the boy Ganymede is really Rosalind, the girl he loves, in disguise. Or that Duke Orsino in Twelfth Night is a "dolt" because he fails to recognize that Cesario is actually a girl disguised as a boy.

Ironically these characters as we know were portrayed by boys/men in Shakespeares age.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Ironically these characters as we know were portrayed by boys/men in Shakespeares age.

Yes, of course. As I said earlier: "As for mistaken identity, the virtuosic treatment is found in As You Like It, where the boy actor playing Rosalind disguises herself as a young man, and then later pretends to be a girl." (In fact, she pretends to play at being Rosalind, to help Orlando in his wooing.)