[1/20/2011] The Bi-weekly Listening and Appreciation Thread: Bruckner's 8th

[MishaK]

The 8th I'm most familiar with is Solti and the VPO

Really?! I hated that one. Sold it after just a few spins. Got good money for it, too, since it was a rare Japanese import. I find early Solti unlistenable in Bruckner. So mindlessly aggressive. He got much, much better in his later years. There is a very fine Bruckner 8 recorded with the CSO live on tour in St. Petersburg, Russia in 1990 that is rich, warm, and much much better structured than his first take with Vienna.

[Todd]

I decided to have another go at the recent release of Kubelik leading this.  A very fine recording, if perhaps more laid back in parts than others.  That's just an observation, not a criticism.  The ending is titanic enough, and the slow movement is right up there with the best.  Good enough to displace other favorites (Boulez, Wand, Celi [for a decidedly unique take], Furtangler from '49)?  Probably not, but extremely fine.

No matter how many times I listen to the work, the coda still amazes. 

[Brahmsian]

No matter how many times I listen to the work, the coda still amazes.

Same here.

[Scarpia]

Really?! I hated that one. Sold it after just a few spins. Got good money for it, too, since it was a rare Japanese import. I find early Solti unlistenable in Bruckner. So mindlessly aggressive. He got much, much better in his later years. There is a very fine Bruckner 8 recorded with the CSO live on tour in St. Petersburg, Russia in 1990 that is rich, warm, and much much better structured than his first take with Vienna.

I did not find the Solti/VPO particularly aggressive, just lacking in any interpretative touches or affection.  Some of the CSO recordings are arguably inappropriately extroverted but that can be fun in a way.  Not the VPO recordings.

[Sergeant Rock]

Really?! I hated that one. Sold it after just a few spins.

I hated Solti/Vienna too. It was the first Bruckner Eighth I bought (must have been in 1972). Absolutely hated it. Took it back to the shop after one spin and exchanged it for Szell/Cleveland.

Sarge

[mahler10th]

I should clarify my involvement with Solti VPO Bruckner 8, as my taste is not as horrific as this suggests.  Much of my time in the 80's and early 90's was spent moving around the country from job to job, being the nature of the industry I was in at that time (hospitality).  I could not collect and amass as I do now because of such a nomadic lifestyle, and consequently only dragged around a few classical tapes and CD's.  One which stayed with me was Solti VPO Bruckner 8.  The opening to the fourth movement ALWAYS got me.  That is why he is by far the most familiar to me. 
I was a complete dilettante until the turn of the Milleneum.
But of course I started collecting when I became more settled  , and it was only then I discovered, "Hey!  Karajan does this at 42:55 - but Klemperer does it at 967:29 - how can this be?"  Thus began an oddyssey of magical discovery and collection.
And comparing and judging.
When I hear Bruckners 8th by Solti and the VPO now, I am stupefied.  It is a very bad version.  It is recorded as a blary shrill.  Solti had no heart in the music or he didn't understand it.  He compensates with histronics in some of the brass sections.  It is probably the last one I'd recommend to anyone.
Alas it was the only Bruckner Symphony I had for a very long time, it stayed with me for years and it was listened to extremely regularly - and my age and fussyness has now relegated it to the latrines.      

[Guido]

Ok well this is a disaster. People are just debating which recording is the best, and we already have a forum for that.

In the past, the idea was that one person leads the discussion, and starts it off with a little essay on the piece - which may have taken any form. But people need to be willing to commit themselves to that role.

[Bulldog]

Ok well this is a disaster. People are just debating which recording is the best, and we already have a forum for that.

Folks are writing what they want to write - there's no disaster here.

[The Diner]

Ok well this is a disaster. People are just debating which recording is the best, and we already have a forum for that.

In the past, the idea was that one person leads the discussion, and starts it off with a little essay on the piece - which may have taken any form. But people need to be willing to commit themselves to that role.

I'm not about to write an essay (hey, I linked to Wikipedia), but I do think we should concentrate more on the work itself, its meaning for and affect on the listener and maybe not so much which recording is best which we do all the time anyway.

[DavidRoss]

Ok well this is a disaster. People are just debating which recording is the best, and we already have a forum for that.

In the past, the idea was that one person leads the discussion, and starts it off with a little essay on the piece - which may have taken any form. But people need to be willing to commit themselves to that role.

We haven't started discussing the piece yet.  Give us time to work up to it.   

[The Diner]

We haven't started discussing the piece yet.  Give us time to work up to it.   

Yeah, we still have a while...

[kishnevi]

Ach Mensch, your response was going so well until the last sentence.  It is fairly challenging for any Scotsman (me) to be silent when ones National Orchestra is described as 'scrawny'.  It may be that I will have to ask you to step outside, and I will have my Claymore with me...

I have some of the Tintner recordings.  My ears found nothing scrawny about them.
Same goes for the Naxos box of Roussel symphonies.

[ajlee]

What an interesting thread! I shall give B8 a try now!

This sym always seemed like a popular one among conductors, as there are many recordings of it. I have not developed an affinity for Bruckner yet (btw, I was the dude who started that "how to appreciate Bruckner" thread...), but now it's a good time to try again! Incidentally, my version is the Jochum/Dresden.

[Cato]

I have some of the Tintner recordings.  My ears found nothing scrawny about them.
Same goes for the Naxos box of Roussel symphonies.

One idea on this:

Perhaps Mensch, who used the word in question, needs better speakers?

My son has some huge speakers, but they produce a really crappy sound, as if the orchestras are playing in an oil barrel.     Even if you really crank them up, the sound is hard and odd.

[Keemun]

Great idea, Dave!  I hope to find the time to participate.   

In case anyone needs a recording of Bruckner's 8th (or wants another one), here are some non-commercial recordings:

Herbert Blomstedt
Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
May 15, 2008 - Basilika Ottobeuren, Germany
mp3 - 256 kbps

http://www.mediafire.com/?zktttxnftnz
_______

Philippe Herreweghe
Orchestre des Champs-Elysees
September 18, 2008 - Musikfest Berlin, Philharmonie Berlin
mp3 - 256 kbps

http://www.mediafire.com/?lya2kmghjqt
_______

Rafael Kubelik
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
December 22, 1966
FLAC

http://www.mediafire.com/?ezzzxmikzmm
http://www.mediafire.com/?0kjkjrtlzej
_______

Lovro von Matacic
NHK Symphony Orchestra
March 7, 1984 - NHK Hall, Tokyo, Japan
FLAC

http://www.mediafire.com/?cohvngmfyj4
http://www.mediafire.com/?e2ogwrduhem
http://www.mediafire.com/?zmmkaz2jfgt
http://www.mediafire.com/?wklzjjmafnd
_______

Lorin Maazel
Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
1999 Bavarian Radio Presentation Set
mp3 - 192 kbps

http://www.mediafire.com/?zzojmzz0dyt
http://www.mediafire.com/?tmdmnny1iy3
_______

Lorin Maazel
New York Philharmonic Orchestra
September 12, 2008 - Beethovenhalle, Beethovenfest, Bonn, Germany
mp3 - 256 kbps

http://www.mediafire.com/?j23zgkulmn1
_______

Klaus Tennstedt
Boston Symphony Orchestra
December 20, 1974
FLAC

http://www.mediafire.com/?zhglzyulgye
http://www.mediafire.com/?lgjq3en0ktw
http://www.mediafire.com/?ztgjimml2wn
_______

Klaus Tennstedt
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
December 3, 1981
FLAC

http://www.mediafire.com/?mj1mnkfnqnn
http://www.mediafire.com/?mje1mmmwzmw

[DavidRoss]

Bruckner 8--aka, "Ode to Coitus Interruptus!"  Lingering impressions after recently listening to it for the first time in a couple of years:  Lots of beauty in the quieter passages with winds & harp.  I'm not fond of all the bombastic brass--lots of fanfare to go nowhere.  4th movement especially shows Tony's huge man-crush on little Dickie.  Ending is nice, reminds me of hiking into Desolation Wilderness over Rockbound Pass and after a grueling climb through massive blocks of granite finally arriving at Lake Doris with a chance to rest in the shady pines on the far shore.  But Doris is just a resting point, not a destination, and so feels the ending of the 8th to me, as if it's not enough for all the effort to get there.

Alright, Bruckner fans--have at it!

[Szykneij]

I'm currently enjoying the version I already had on my shelf on the budget Pilz label. Amazon still has some available used for only $ .69.



Unfortunately, the Amazon picture link isn't working for this one.

[Sergeant Rock]

But Doris is just a resting point, not a destination, and so feels the ending of the 8th to me, as if it's not enough for all the effort to get there.

Completely disagree with your conclusion, David. I think the entire symphony is a supreme example of the symphonic journey (worthy to stand alongside THE Fifth) and the coda the most perfect thing Bruckner composed. To quote Robert Simpson, composer and author of The Essence of Bruckner:

"The final climax is evolved with the greatest possible dignity and grandeur. As with most of Bruckner's ultimate passages, it opens in darkness, breathing upon dim fragments of the main theme, passing from key to key as it climbs in a long crescendo. The strings persist in smoky figurations that burst into flame as the burning sun touches them; the last triumphant affirmation of C major is the complete reply to everything, and it contains elements of the main themes of all four movements. The end is abrupt but of tremendous finality."

I've been listening to Szell's Cleveland performance. The broad pace of his Scherzo reminds me of a review I read in the early 70s which said Szell's pace made the music sound like the machinery of heaven. Nice description. I've always thought the Ninth's Scherzo sounds like the engine of hell. Interesting to compare the two.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

Well, Sarge, just heard Jochum/SKD and this finale was more satisfying than the Boulez I heard yesterday--more urgency and oomph!  Could be I was getting drowsy before, or that I took a break today between 3rd & 4th so was more alert.  Damn but the 3rd movement is beautiful!  Love Bruckner's adagios--but the bombastic brass elsewhere wears me out.  Speaking of which, I like the rougher more raggedy SKD brass in this symphony more than the polished WP for Boulez, and the darker tone overall.  But the fourth movement keeps reminding me of Wagner's Rhine....

I plan to hear it a few more times in the next couple of weeks.  Who knows, I might end up agreeing with you.  (Note, however, that Simpson's worship doesn't move me; he may be the only composer in history next to whom Bruckner seems pithy!)

[Brian]

Damn but the 3rd movement is beautiful!

I've heard 3-4 performances of the Eighth, only, but Jochum's is the one that makes the third movement work best for me. It's gorgeous. But it makes others sound terse. I'm gonna try Celi next and see if he makes Jochum sound terse.