Who is greater: Bach or Brahms?

[prémont]

I love it and consider it a masterpiece in the old Grumiaux recording, and at least as fascinating when played by some of the more modern masters.

Do you think of his mono recording from about 1957 with the Guller chamber orchestra, one of my all-time favorite Bach recordings, HIP or not??

[prémont]

Evidence or not, tempo is a rather subjective matter, and the performer must choose a tempo, which he finds comfortable, - or else the music will sound truncated - in our time as well as in the baroque ages, I suppose. And to consider tempo an individual issue, isolated from issues concerning phrasing, articulation, size of the orchestra, acoustical properties of the venue and so on, is in my humble opinion futile.

[FideLeo]

Evidence or not, tempo is a rather subjective matter, and the performer must choose a tempo, which he finds comfortable, - or else the music will sound truncated - in our time as well as in the baroque ages, I suppose. And to consider tempo an individual issue, isolated from issues concerning phrasing, articulation, size of the orchestra, acoustical properties of the venue and so on, is in my humble opinion futile.

That's why Sherman (and most others he cited) gave only a range for his estimate.  There are no absolute values but there are trends in which certain values are found more acceptable than eccentric.  I agree with Sherman trends in Baroque times could be very different from they were around 1900s for interpreting tempo marks or time signatures. 

[prémont]

That's why Sherman (and most others he cited) gave only a range for his estimate.  There are no absolute values but there are trends in which certain values are found more acceptable than eccentric.  I agree with Sherman trends in Baroque times could be very different from they were around 1900s for interpreting tempo marks or time signatures.

No doubt some tempo choices for baroque music about 1900 were too slow, but remember the giant orchestras im use at that time, now we fortunately are writing 2011.

[Antoine Marchand]

Evidence or not, tempo is a rather subjective matter, and the performer must choose a tempo, which he finds comfortable, - or else the music will sound truncated - in our time as well as in the baroque ages, I suppose. And to consider tempo an individual issue, isolated from issues concerning phrasing, articulation, size of the orchestra, acoustical properties of the venue and so on, is in my humble opinion futile.

Well, that sounds reasonable, but I will be a quite more prosaic on this matter. Tempi chosen by groups like I Barocchisti (especially their Brandenburgs), Café Zimmermann (in general, but especially their series of Bach concertos) and Il Giardino Armonico (even in Vivaldi! -just to mention three notorious examples- sound totally mad and unmusical to me, both artistically as historically. If not, what about our knowledge on the vital rhythm during the Baroque Era? A society where people still moved afoot and the fastest transportation was a horse... and there (I mean, the Baroque world) the music was a part of public and social life, daily listened to at churches, schools and all kinds of ceremonies; not a sort of weird hobby like usually these days people consider our interest in music.       

[prémont]

Tempi chosen by groups like I Barocchisti (especially their Brandenburgs), Café Zimmermann (in general, but especially their series of Bach concertos) and Il Giardino Armonico (even in Vivaldi! -just to mention three notorious examples- sound totally mad and unmusical to me, both artistically as historically.

I agree as to I Barocchisti (the most), and Giardino Armonico and one could also mention Musica Antiqua Cologne. If one listens carefully to their Bach recordings, it is obvious, that the musicians are not quite comfortable with the tempo´s - at least they do not always manage to shape the phrases well.

And the choice of a slightly slower tempo woud not done the music any harm.

[Antoine Marchand]

And the choice of a slightly slower tempo woud not done the music any harm.

This is real question: Do you know how Goebel injured his arm?

Second question: What do you think about Café Zimmermann (obviously excluding their disc under Leonhardt  )?

[Chaszz]

You don't hear it, therefore no one hears it?

Before that, Chaszz wrote: "If people are hearing the majestic beauty of it at these tempos, and I cannot because of my upbringing, fine, but I don't know if they are."

I could pick out some other examples, Scarpia, but I think this one is enough to demonstrate that you are putting words in my mouth. Is "I don't know if they are" the same thing as "You don't hear it, therefore no one hears it?" My meaning, which is an undecided and questioning one, is notably different from your interpretation of my meaning, which is that I am sure no one hears it. I question their hearing it, but nowhere do I say they do not hear it. I also say, prior to that, that if they hear the meaning and I cannot because of my upbringing, fine, thus implying there is a good possibility they do and I miss it because of my prejudices. Thus in two ways my clear meaning is considerably more tentative than you represent. This example is analogous to when you said before that I thought people were pretending to like it, which I had never said or even remotely implied.

I am sorry to say this, but I think that you do not argue fairly; rather you set up straw horses which you can then easily demolish, evidently hoping nobody will notice that your debate partner never set up those horses, you did.   I appreciate that you genuinely like those tempos and consider them perfectly valid, while I do not. It is not necessary to twist my words into things I never said, to express your point of view.   

Also I have offered concrete evidence that at least one movement is today generally played faster than the composer intended it, thus bringing the conversation beyond the mode of taste and preference and into the area of proof, to which you have not responded at all. If I am correct and Bach would have conducted this movement appreciably more slowly when he performed it, or did conduct it more slowly when he did perform it, this goes quite a bit beyond the area of preference and into serious territory. Again, please notice I said if.

[Scarpia]

Before that Chaszz write: "If people are hearing the majestic beauty of it at these tempos, and I cannot because of my upbringing, fine, but I don't know if they are."

I could pick out some other examples, Scarpia, but I think this one is enough to demonstrate that you are putting words in my mouth. Is "I don't know if they are" the same thing as as "You don't hear it, therefore no one hears it?"
My meaning, which is an undecided and questioning one, is notably different from your interpretation of my meaning, which is that I am sure no one hears it. I question their hearing it, but nowhere do I say they do not hear it. I also say, prior to that, that if they hear the meaning, fine, thus implying there is a good possibility they do. This example is analogous to when you said before that I thought people were pretending to like it, which I had never said or even remotely implied. I am sorry to say this, but I think that you do not argue fairly; rather you set up straw horses which you can then easily demolish, evidently hoping nobody will notice that your debate partner never set up those horses, you did. I appreciate that you genuinely like those tempos and consider them perfectly valid, while I do not. It is not necessary to twist my words into things I never said, to express your point of view.

You said you could not hear the triplets as distinct and this was "objective" proof that the tempo was too fast.   There is nothing objective about it.  It is your opinion, and perhaps you should consider the possibility that opinions other than your own might be equally valid. 

I don't claim your taste is not valid.  I also like listening to the older romanticized Bach recordings.  But your claim that HIP Bach is somehow a perversion is just plain silly.

[prémont]

This is real question: Do you know how Goebel injured his arm?

No, do you?

Second question: What do you think about Café Zimmermann (obviously excluding their disc under Leonhardt  )?

Judged from their first four Bach instrumental music CDs (the fifth is ordered) I do not think they deserve to be categorized along with I Barocchisti and Giardino Armonico. Well, their tempi are fast, but I think they still manage to make sense of the music. And I like the contributions from Pablo Valetti and Celine Frisch.

[Chaszz]

You said you could not hear the triplets as distinct and this was "objective" proof that the tempo was too fast.   There is nothing objective about it.  It is your opinion, and perhaps you should consider the possibility that opinions other than your own might be equally valid. 

I don't claim your taste is not valid.  I also like listening to the older romanticized Bach recordings.  But your claim that HIP Bach is somehow a perversion is just plain silly.

I might suggest you seek out a current version of the Cum Sancto Spiritu movement and decide for yourself whether you can hear those 6 notes in the final trumpet phrase as triplets or only as quarter notes. Then, if you could not, we could possibly discuss what that signifies in terms of the composer's intent and the meaning of the music. If you could, I would stand refuted for my claim of objective proof going beyond taste/preference.

In case you might want to carry this out, or some other member is interested in do so, it would be nice to have it posted so we could all hear it. I think I may have an HIP version myself somewhere which I might root around for; my things are still unsettled after a recent move.   

[DavidRoss]

The triplets!  I just tried it, listening to Rilling's traditional "gravitas" laden approach and Minkowski's new HIPPI disc.  Heard the triplets in both, but more cleanly in the former, largely because of the more forward mix and not the 15% slower speed--and, of course, the superior articulation of valved trumpets, I suspect.

[Antoine Marchand]

No, do you?

Not really, I just knew he initially suffered a permanent loss of fine motor control in his left hand, but apparently the causes are not clear. Maybe a mix between some problems of wrong technique and extreme requirements. 

Judged from their first four Bach instrumental music CDs (the fifth is ordered) I do not think they deserve to be categorized along with I Barocchisti and Giardino Armonico. Well, their tempi are fast, but I think they still manage to make sense of the music. And I like the contributions from Pablo Valetti and Celine Frisch.

I just bought two of those volumes (2 & 3), but I didn't find any pleasure there; just some unnatural tempi, heavy bass line, not my cup of tea... I mean there are a good number of fine performances of those concerti that I enjoy without to do concessions, so I simply won't purchase their other discs.

I agree with you about Celine Frisch, who is a very interesting harpsichordist; two discs by her have been in my wishlist for a long time.

Finally, IMO Café Zimmermann did a very good job under Leonhardt's direction, therefore, maybe they are not a lost case. 

[Scarpia]

Not really, I just knew he initially suffered a permanent loss of fine motor control in his left hand, but apparently the causes are not clear. Maybe a mix between some problems of wrong technique and extreme requirements. 

I thought it was a motorcycle accident.

[Antoine Marchand]

I thought it was a motorcycle accident.

I thought the same, but these links say another thing:

http://www.blues101.org/articles/holistic1.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/08/27/arts/in-music-as-well-as-sports-injuries-can-end-a-career.html?pagewanted=all

Excerpt from an article in the New York Times:

Take Mr. Goebel, who directs the splendid period-instrument group Musica Antiqua Koln, in Cologne, Germany, and has a reputation for practicing long and hard, even manically. The trait has served him well over the last five years, as, with fierce determination, he has retrained himself to play the violin with hands reversed, an almost unheard-of feat in midcareer.

One has to hope that even Mr. Goebel, at 43, cannot wear out two hands in a lifetime, although there were probably other factors involved in his injury. Several months ago, he suggested that unevenness or inconsistency in the string tension of his antique violin might have caused him to compensate with his fingers. More recently, he declined to elaborate on that notion or speculate further on the causes.

''Being a musician can be an accident,'' Mr. Goebel said in quaintly accented English, impatiently steering the conversation back toward music. What he seemed to mean was, ''Being a musician is an accident waiting to happen.''

[prémont]

I just bought two of those volumes (2 & 3), but I didn't find any pleasure there; just some unnatural tempi, heavy bass line, not my cup of tea... I mean there are a good number of fine performances of those concerti that I enjoy without to do concessions, so I simply won't purchase their other discs.

Maybe I should add, that even if I like them, they are e.g. concerning the Brandenburgs not among my top 20.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You said you could not hear the triplets as distinct and this was "objective" proof that the tempo was too fast.   There is nothing objective about it.  It is your opinion, and perhaps you should consider the possibility that opinions other than your own might be equally valid.

He makes a reasonable point. As I was told in my early days of piano study, a tempo cannot be faster than the performer can articulate the smallest note values in the piece. What we have here in the M Bm example, however, are just two written-out mordents at the very end where the conductor could accommodate them in a slight ritardando, and in fact there are smaller note values (32nds) for the first trumpet and the flutes/oboes elsewhere. It would be interesting to know if these are audible in the "fast" recordings being cited.

[laredo]

There is no contest. Brahms greatest contrapunctal work, that is the finale of the 4th symphony, pale in comparison of some fugues of the well tempered klavier. Not to mention other majestic fugues of the great Kantor.

[karlhenning]

Ah, so counterpoint is the touchstone. Now that we know that, the question becomes much, much simpler, of course.

Far too simple, of course.

[Florestan]

In organ music, violin/cello partitas and sonatas, harpsichord music, orchestral suites, concerti grossi, cantatas and oratorios: Bach > Brahms

In symphonies, piano concertos, serenades, chamber music with clarinet/horn, string quartets-quintets-sextets, piano trios-quartets-quintets, violin/cello & piano sonatas: Brahms > Bach.

I cannot think of any other meaningful answer.