Top 10 favourite VS. top 10 greatest composers

[Lethevich]

How about an experiment? The mission: list the 10 composers you think are the greatest (via whatever criterion you choose - personal feelings about the quality of their music, or maybe what you feel are empirical choices revealed by critical - or dare I suggest popular - consensus, that you may not 'feel' yourself), and then underneath this, a list of your 10 favourite composers (via whatever criterion you choose - "personal connection" to a unique idiom, or simply the composers you listen to most often). I think that it'll be interesting for people to see the choices respondees make when two distinct "positive" opinions are required, and if you like, please include a note on your thought process in selecting either list to aid this understanding.

Sorry if this is too complex, but I am trying to clear up several curiosities with several reoccurring discussions on GMG all in one thread. Also I realise that the "favourite" section will duplicate some the recent thread, but a) this is open to any choice of composer and b) people given the two categories might perhaps alter their choices slightly.

10 greatest:

Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Wagner, Schoenberg, Sibelius, Stravinsky

Reasons: I didn't pick earlier composers because I don't think they're interesting enough, I didn't pick more modern composers because I feel that no one or two stick their head above the crowd, and critical consensus has yet to sort them out. Ligeti came close, but he's somewhat uneven. Schubert came close but his final year is not enough for me. It was hard to omit Debussy, but that's life. Overall I feel that the ones I picked have the greatest quality/influence ratio - I didn't choose them simply for one or the other, but a combination.

10 favourite:

Haydn, Brahms, Verdi, Bruckner, Schumann, Dvořák, Debussy, Schoenberg, Sibelius, Bartók

Reasons: Based almost purely on how much I listen to them - there are composers who I "connect" to more, but if they didn't write enough music to demand a constant presence then they don't merit a place, I feel.

Okay, time for nobody to respond I just want to crawl inside your heads and poke around, is that so bad?

[Todd]

There is no banana option.  I cannot vote.

[Sergeant Rock]

Although I'm utterly unqualified to decide who's greatest, I'd say it were these ten (beginning with Bach simply because I have no idea who was greater: Tallis, Palestrina, Ockegheim, Monteverdi, Purcell? and ending with Schoenberg so I don't have to deal with the vexing question of which 20th century composers will still be played fifty years from now):

Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Verdi, Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg

Favorites:

Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, Bruckner, Brahms, Mahler, Sibelius, Elgar, Franz Schmidt, Vaughan Williams, Havergal Brian

Yeah, I know that's thirteen but I'm sick of having to leave out Elgar, Schmidt and Schubert everytime I make a Top Ten list

For some reason I'm drawn to Vienna: eight of my composers are associated with that city. And the English, too, captured my soul very early. The first classical record I purchased (when I was 16) was Barbirolli's Elgar Enigma and VW8.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

Greatest (perhaps I should have asked my Bach question here):

Beethoven, Schubert, Shoenberg, Wagner, Verdi, Mozart, Haydn, Liszt, Brahms, Johan Strauss II

Favorite:

Tchaikovsky, Grainger, Offenbach, Beethoven, Schumann, Elgar, Brahms, Dvorak, Chopin, Rachmaninov.


Interestingly, only Beethoven and Brahms appear on both my lists (hope I didn't forget someone). By greatest, I chose criteria as roughly the following: 1) Good music, 2) Impact on fellow composers, 3) Impact on the history of music, 4) Innovativeness, 5) Expertise at what they did (whether broad or narrow). 

[Lethevich]

@Sarge, it is interesting how themes or isolated preferences tend to crop up no matter how much we hide them. I now realise that the inclusion of Sibelius over, say, Handel on my "greatest" list was pure personal preference. There was me thinking I was being super objective

@ukrneal, that is the kind of "greatest" list that I made this thread to see, it's so neat to see unusual choices with a perfectly reasonable rationale. J Strauss II is one of the most refined composers I have heard in terms of sheer orchestrational ability, perhaps the equivelent of Chopin for the piano in terms of being able to refine to the n-th point, and yet I never considered him for either list of mine and now I am wondering why not.

[bhodges]

I just want to crawl inside your heads and poke around, is that so bad?

"Be careful what you wish for." 

10 greatest:
(informal criteria: quantity, diversity, and caliber of output; frequency of performance; influence on others)

Bach
Beethoven
Debussy
Haydn
Janáček
Ligeti
Mozart
Schoenberg
Stravinsky
Wagner

10 favorites:

Bartók
Berg
Britten
Bruckner
Ives
Janáček
Mahler
Ravel
Shostakovich
Stravinsky

--Bruce

[mc ukrneal]

"Be careful what you wish for." 

10 greatest:
(informal criteria: quantity, diversity, and caliber of output; frequency of performance; influence on others)

Bach
Beethoven
Debussy
Haydn
Janáček
Ligeti
Mozart
Schoenberg
Stravinsky
Wagner

10 favorites:

Bartók
Berg
Britten
Bruckner
Ives
Janáček
Mahler
Ravel
Shostakovich
Stravinsky

--Bruce

I did forget someone - Stravinsky. He should be on the greatest list.

[Bulldog]

I'm tired of the "greatest vs. favorite" thing, but I do enjoy polls.

[Brian]

10 Greatest:

J.S. Bach (T2)
Beethoven (1)
Brahms
Debussy
Dvorak
Haydn (5)
Mozart (T2)
Schubert
Shostakovich (4)
Wagner

10 Favorites:
Beethoven (T1)
Chopin
Dvorak (T1)
Gershwin
Janacek
Mozart
Ravel
Shostakovich
Sibelius (3)
Tchaikovsky

I have the tiniest of crossovers: only Beethoven and Dvorak (my top two favorites) plus Mozart and Shostakovich made both lists! Of course, despite the fact that I resisted putting six favorites on the list (sorry, Tchaik and Ravel), it's certainly possible that my soul-mate connection with Dvorak is responsible for him squeezing into the top ten (though I'd suggest that anybody putting Brahms on such a list basically has to include Dvorak too) and also for putting Shostakovich in the top five when nobody else will even put him in the top ten.

Oddly, though, I put Shostakovich in the top ten more for the reasons I put Haydn and Debussy on my list than for the reasons I added Dvorak: out of sheer respect for his accomplishment and legacy rather than personal fondness. I haven't yet heard the Fourth Symphony (sorry Karl), or for that matter Nos 8 or 12-15; I have only dabbled in the quartets, voyaged across the preludes and fugues twice, left the operas utterly untouched, not yet tried the violin concertos, and left the comparatively little I have heard not-too-closely examined (except Symphonies 5, 9 and 10) - and yet despite all this I recognize in Shostakovich a compositional titan whose achievement may be comparable only to Beethoven's [EDIT: omitting those who came before Beethoven!]. In my exceedingly modest, inexperienced opinion, of course. 

The one place where personal taste and subjectivity is likely to have crept in is my suspicion that, over the next hundred years, Shostakovich's shadow will loom larger than Schoenberg's. That said, on the "Greatest" list my runners-up were Verdi and Mahler.

[DavidRoss]

There is no banana option.  I cannot vote.

Not even a kumquat!

Greatest--absolute quality of works, uniform quality of works, quality of accomplishment in diverse genres, groundbreaking originality, influence, standing test of time (and my opinion is only half-fast):

Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Sibelius, Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy, Schubert, Haydn, Berlioz, Chopin, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and yes I know that's far more than 10 and leaves out Buxtehude and Telemann and Monteverdi and Handel and Vivaldi and so on...and later dudes like Bartok and Dvorak and Jancek and...but you get the idea.

Favorite--these are the fellows whose music speaks most clearly, deeply, and directly to my soul, who consistently wrote works that speak to me over and over again and which I can hardly help but listen to when I hear them:

Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Sibelius, Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Brahms, Tchaikovsky...at least, I think they're the ones I listed earlier today elsewhere. 

[Sergeant Rock]

@Sarge, it is interesting how themes or isolated preferences tend to crop up no matter how much we hide them. I now realise that the inclusion of Sibelius over, say, Handel on my "greatest" list was pure personal preference. There was me thinking I was being super objective

I may be guilty of the same thing with my inclusion of Mahler. Anyway, I don't fault you listing Sibelius among the greats. I certainly think he is. I'm just concerned about his eventual place in the big scheme of things. Mahler has been roaring along now for half a century, and he's popular all over the world while Sibelius peaked in the 30s, 40s (and was never popular outside of Scandinavia, Britain and the US.). Except for the Violin Concerto Sibelius doesn't get much concert hall time nowadays which may be an indication how the future will view him. I hope not.

Sarge

[MishaK]

Sarge,

You will like this: http://beyondthescore.org/program_sibelius.html

[DavidRoss]

I may be guilty of the same thing with my inclusion of Mahler. Anyway, I don't fault you listing Sibelius among the greats. I certainly think he is. I'm just concerned about his eventual place in the big scheme of things. Mahler has been roaring along now for half a century, and he's popular all over the world while Sibelius peaked in the 30s, 40s (and was never popular outside of Scandinavia, Britain and the US.). Except for the Violin Concerto Sibelius doesn't get much concert hall time nowadays which may be an indication how the future will view him. I hope not.

Sarge

No worries, Sarge.  His time has yet to come.  The world in general isn't ready for him...yet!

[Sergeant Rock]

Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Sibelius, Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Brahms, Tchaikovsky...at least, I think they're the ones I listed earlier today elsewhere. 

Yeah, I'm afraid to go back over my lists--afraid of all the contradictions I might find 

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

Sarge,

You will like this: http://beyondthescore.org/program_sibelius.html

Oh, my--thanks for posting this.  You're a real mensch!

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge,

You will like this: http://beyondthescore.org/program_sibelius.html

Cool. Thanks, Mensch. I'll play it tomorrow. It's rather late in my part of the world.

Sarge

[Brian]

No worries, Sarge.  His time has yet to come.  The world in general isn't ready for him...yet!

There's a story that Morton Feldman once had to lecture a group of music students at an edgy '70s summer program for like-minded rebels. He sat on the stage and said to the class, "The people you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people you think are conservatives might be radical."

Then he began to hum the 'swan hymn.'

[Henk]

Amazed Lethe I don't find Bax even on your favorite list.

10 greatest: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Handel, Haydn, Mahler, Rossini, Bartok, Chopin, Stravinsky

10 favorites: Chopin, Bach, Handel, Rossini, Ravel, Donatoni, Boulez, Sciarrino, Mendelssohn, De Raaff

[DavidRoss]

There's a story that Morton Feldman once had to lecture a group of music students at an edgy '70s summer program for like-minded rebels. He sat on the stage and said to the class, "The people you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people you think are conservatives might be radical."

Then he began to hum the 'swan hymn.'

Yep.  Feldman is not alone in recognizing just how radical ("to the root") Sibelius was.  Fractals, dude!  Proto-minimalist.  Quintessentially modernist economy.  And everything in service to a unique personal vision yielding a sound as unmistakable as any, despite all his influence and numerous attempts to emulate and imitate him.

[PaulSC]

Maybe my "favorites" are the ones who have brought the most pleasure, excitement, and peace into my life, while the "greatest" are the ones who have thus enriched the lives of the most people individually or collectively. Except that doesn't allow for the possibilty of a truly great artist languishing in obscurity. Hmm...

10 GREATEST
Johann Sebastian Bach
Ludwig van Beethoven
Johannes Brahms
Frederic Chopin
Franz Joseph Haydn
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Franz Schubert
Robert Schumann
Igor Stravinsky
Richard Wagner

13 FAVORITES
Johann Sebastian Bach
Ludwig van Beethoven
Johannes Brahms
Elliott Carter
Frederic Chopin
Mario Davidovsky
Morton Feldman
Franz Joseph Haydn
Nikolai Medtner
Mel Powell
Domenico Scarlatti
Robert Schumann
Anton Webern