Is Fidelio a feminist opera?

[Papageno]

I've read in several places that Fidelio is a feminist opera, but I think not, as Leonore does whatever she does in the disguise of a man.  It would have been feminist is she had undertaken all those actions representing a woman instead of in the disguise of a man.  What do you think my loves?

[Henk]

I've read in several places that Fidelio is a feminist opera, but I think not, as Leonore does whatever she does in the disguise of a man.  It would have been feminist is she had undertaken all those actions representing a woman instead of in the disguise of a man.  What do you think my loves?

Interesting. I agree.

[MishaK]

I've read in several places that Fidelio is a feminist opera, but I think not, as Leonore does whatever she does in the disguise of a man.  It would have been feminist is she had undertaken all those actions representing a woman instead of in the disguise of a man.  What do you think my loves?

For that time, it takes a healthy dose of feminism to even conceive of women doing such heroic acts and taking on masculine roles. That she wore a man's clothing doesn't make it any less so. It only foregrounds more clearly the biases of the time. The fact that the rest of the cast buys the male disguise and doesn't suspect anything only underscores the essentially feminist point that women can do anything men do.

[Florestan]

women can do anything men do.

Not really. They can't inseminate another woman, for instance. 

[Wendell_E]

It would have been feminist is she had undertaken all those actions representing a woman instead of in the disguise of a man.  What do you think my loves?

I'm with Mensch.  In those days, could she even have gotten that job in the prison as a woman, so that she could undertake all those actions?  Probably not. 

Not really. They can't inseminate another woman, for instance. 

Sure they can.  It's just a little more difficult. 

[DavidRoss]

define feminist

[MishaK]

Not really. They can't inseminate another woman, for instance. 

That's not really an exceptional skill. 50% of fauna can do that, and many of them get eaten after completing the task.

[Florestan]

That's not really an exceptional skill. 50% of fauna can do that, and many of them get eaten after completing the task.

True but irrelevant: it doesn't invalidate the fact that women can't do anything men do.

[MishaK]

True but irrelevant: it doesn't invalidate the fact that women can't do anything men do.

You're being a pedant. Neither can men breastfeed. That's clearly not what was meant. And neither insemination nor breastfeeding are at issue in Fidelio. You're just being a contrarian in order to feel smart about yourself.

[Florestan]

You're being a pedant. Neither can men breastfeed. That's clearly not what was meant. And neither insemination nor breastfeeding are at issue in Fidelio. You're just being a contrarian in order to feel smart about yourself.

I don't know, you are the expert. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Obviously the reason she assumes the disguise is to infiltrate the prison and gain access to Florestan without being suspected. She manages to gain the jailer's trust, allow the whole prison population (Florestan excepted) a temporary respite from confinement, bring food to her starving husband, and pull a gun on the governor and thus cause his ruin. I don't know if that makes her a "feminist," but she's pretty brave if you ask me, and she sings some good music too. Maybe the breastfeeding occurs after the curtain comes down and she and hubby go back to their villa.

[RJR]

Obviously the reason she assumes the disguise is to infiltrate the prison and gain access to Florestan without being suspected. She manages to gain the jailer's trust, allow the whole prison population (Florestan excepted) a temporary respite from confinement, bring food to her starving husband, and pull a gun on the governor and thus cause his ruin. I don't know if that makes her a "feminist," but she's pretty brave if you ask me, and she sings some good music too. Maybe the breastfeeding occurs after the curtain comes down and she and hubby go back to their villa.

Perhaps.
When my youngest brother was in Vienna in 1970 to celebrate Beethoven's Centenial he bought a ticket to see Fidelio. When he arrived the day of the performance he wasn't allowed in because he wasn't appropriately attired. He was wearing multi-patched jeans. 

About ten years ago all the heads of state gathered for a sumptuous banquet with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. The whole affair must have cost millions of dollars. After they had finished dining, they went into another room to watch a theatre production of Les Misérables.

[Florestan]

When my youngest brother was in Vienna in 1970 to celebrate Beethoven's Centenial he bought a ticket to see Fidelio. When he arrived the day of the performance he wasn't allowed in because he wasn't appropriately attired. He was wearing multi-patched jeans. 

His fault entirely. For God's sake, couldn't he have weared something more formal just for one bloody evening?  I mean, honestly, an opera hall is not a pub, especially the Viennese one...

About ten years ago all the heads of state gathered for a sumptuous banquet with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. The whole affair must have cost millions of dollars. After they had finished dining, they went into another room to watch a theatre production of Les Misérables.

This very issue was addressed long ago by one Lev Nikolaevitch Tolstoy... Nothing has changed ever since., and nothing will. 

[knight66]

I don't really agree with your first point.Apart from the probability at many of those on stage would have been even less well dressed; what is that event about? Is it about experiencing some lovely music in an expensive setting, or was Beethoven examining freedom ans suppression? I think the latter and someone was denied that because his dress did not come up to the taste standards deemed appropriate.

Of course there are limits, are there not always? No doubt no one would bat an eyelid now, but the principle stands. Some turn up at events for the social element, others to get to grips with any ideas being put across and have their life enriched.

Mike

[Florestan]

I don't really agree with your first point.Apart from the probability at many of those on stage would have been even less well dressed; what is that event about? (1) Is it about experiencing some lovely music in an expensive setting, or was Beethoven examining freedom ans suppression[? (2) I think the latter and someone was denied that because his dress did not come up to the taste standards deemed appropriate.

Re: (1) --- Both. 

Re:  (2) --- That's true. Still I maintain my position: it is a well-known fact that the Viennese society of classical music connoiseurs is a very conservative one, at least in matters concerning appearance and formality. I don't think that wearing trousers, white shirt and sack coat would have been such an unbearable sacrifice on the altar of snobbery --- especially considering it was an anniversary event.

FWIW, I wear jeans (not multi-patched, though) at almost any concert or opera performance I attend, without any problems. But then again, Bucharest Opera is not like the Vienna one, nor is the Romanian NRSO like the Wiener Philharmoniker --- alas! 

As a matter of fact, I just registered for the drawing of the Vienna New Year Concert 2011 tickets; if I win, I will have a big problem: what to wear? 

[knight66]

Re: (1) --- Both. 

As a matter of fact, I just registered for the drawing of the Vienna New Year Concert 2011 tickets; if I win, I will have a big problem: what to wear? 

Clearly, it will have to be a ballgown!

Mike

[(poco) Sforzando]

His fault entirely. For God's sake, couldn't he have weared something more formal just for one bloody evening?  I mean, honestly, an opera hall is not a pub, especially the Viennese one...

I take it you haven't been to the Met lately. With the lines for the bar and then the lines for the facilities, no wonder intermissions are 35 minutes long.