Suggestions for a Newbie

[knight66]

You can tell that Bruce really, really means it.

I was dumped into classical music around the age of 10, left to watch Rossini's William Tell while my father socialised with friends in the cast. Same evening Traviata.....had no background in it, no knowledge of it. I did not dash out and look for lots of classical music, but interest started then. I agree, learning comes later, if you feel like it. It enriches the experience for some, not for others.

Mike

Mike

I really, really mean it too.

[bhodges]

You can tell that Bruce really, really means it.

...

Mike

Mike

I really, really mean it too.

--Bruce

[Scarpia]

In my case, incidental exposure did not stick, but learning a bit about it did the trick.  But it was not one before the other.  The two processes were coincident.  Listen, be curious, learn, listen to more, be curious, learn more, etc.   Nowadays it should be easier because you can just google the stuff.  You don't have to go the the library and read actual books. 

[knight66]

I did learn a bit from the good linear notes and always read the texts carefully. Now that is more difficult with a lot of discs giving next to no information. I supplemented it by reading Gramophone, then books. But to be honest, my googling tends to be too much hit and run without the digging that a decent book provides.

Mike

[Scarpia]

I did learn a bit from the good linear notes and always read the texts carefully. Now that is more difficult with a lot of discs giving next to no information. I supplemented it by reading Gramophone, then books. But to be honest, my googling tends to be too much hit and run without the digging that a decent book provides.

For music I usually dispense with Google and look in Wikipedia.  But linear notes were certainly a good resource, and in the days of LPs you could usually read them in the record store before buying the album.

[Mirror Image]

Hello,

I've just started trying to really get into classical music. But, I want to listen to pieces I'd most likely enjoy rather than those I wouldn't, so I figured I'd give you some information on my musical tastes, and go from there.

The genre I most love is heavy metal, mostly for its passion, intricacy, and musicianship. I like music that displays good musicianship and is well-written and more complex, rather than simplistic. I like music that is powerful. After metal, I love progressive rock (i.e., the 70s prog-rock bands like Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, and Pink Floyd). Progressive metal is my favorite particular genre (bands like Opeth and Between the Buried and Me toping my list). I also like to listen to jazz and jazz-fusion. Aside from that (and usually in small doses), I like classic rock, contemporary rock, and a few indie bands.

I have listened to some Stravinsky and enjoyed it, mainly Firebird. It's a bit too meandering in sections, but the ending climax is just awesome. I've also listend to Gustav Holst's Planets suite, and really love that, especially the first piece inspired by Mars.

So, where do you suggest I go from here?

There's a multitude of directions you can go after hearing some of Stravinsky and Holst. Here are a few works that I think you would enjoy:

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10
Sibelius: Pohjola's Daughter
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G major
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"
Rachmaninov: Symphony No. 2
Honegger: Pacific 231
Prokofiev: Scythian Suite
Revueltas: Sensemaya
Villa-Lobos: Genesis
Debussy: La Mer
Bruckner: Symphony No. 9
Respighi: Church Windows
Barber: Violin Concerto
Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht (version for string orchestra)
Webern: Im Sommerwind

These should keep you busy for awhile. Listen with an open-mind.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Wow guys, thanks a bunch! This will definitely keep me occupied for some time.

I do want to address what bigshot says, though:

The way people listen to popular music is entirely different than the way people listen to classical. Popular music is all about riffs and hooks that grab you on first hearing. The music is designed to be listened to informally. Most people multitask with their iPod on shuffle. The length rarely exceeds a casual attention span- under five minutes. People usually have favorites that change with the mode of the day. A lot of popular music that is over a year or two old is forgotten, replaced by current hits.

None of that applies to classical music. In fact, if you attempt to listen to classical music that way, you'll end up bored and impatient for the music to hurry up and get to the "good parts".

The main reason newbies have trouble figuring out how to get into classical music is because they try to listen to it like other types of music. That just doesn't work. Although there is an emotional level to the music that is direct and immediate, there is also a structural and contextual level to the music that is absolutely necessary to try to grasp if you are going to appreciate it.

The great pianist, Schnabel once explained that he resisted recording because his respect for Beethoven was so great that he couldn't bear the thought that someone might listen to the Hammeklavier in their bathrobe at the kitchen table eating a ham sandwich. That's a really funny idea, but there's a germ of truth to it too.

We all want to share our passion for music with others, but we need to be honest with them that there is more involved with an appreciation of classical music than just finding some classical tunes that sound like heavy metal. Structurally, the nursery rhyme repetition of power riffs is a million miles away from the rigid form of the sonata or the long form architecture of a Mahler symphony. If one tries to address these sorts of pieces in the same way, one is bound to be disappointed.

Learning about anything new in this world requires effort. You don't sit down at a piano and automatically know how to play, and just because you can hold a pencil doesn't mean you know how to draw. Understanding and appreciating classical music, fine art, ballet or any other sophisticated and multilayered art form requires a willingness to put in the time and effort to learn about what you're looking at.

Listening to classical music with ignorance about what it really is can only lead to an ignorant reaction to it.

I don't think this is meant to apply to me directly, but if it is, you are making a lot of assumptions as to what I listen to and how I listen to it. I don't listen to a lot of "casual" listening--and, if you knew much about modern metal, you'd know very little of it is for the casual listener. It's intricate, complex, and contains a lot of virtuosic musicianship. But beyond that, a lot of the progressive rock (and metal) I listen to contains many 10+ minute songs and complicated compositions.

Really, the above is a pompous attitude displayed by people (a minority, that is) who are fans of high art, or of any art for that matter. It's a thinking that is along the lines of, "You don't get it, and since I do get it, and have devoted my life to getting it, how dare you try and claim you appreciate it as much as me?" It happens all the time when someone's favorite obscure band hits it big. They will claim that they were there "from the beginning," and that that makes them a "true fan."

I just want to get into classical music.

[bigshot]

Actually, I do know about progressive rock and heavy metal. But I also know about Mahler, Harlem jazz, country swing, Cuban mambo, rockabilly, bebop, 50s pop vocals, opera and a few dozen other musical styles. When I compare one type of music to another, it's relative and it's based on the decades of serious study of music that I've done. I'm not saying this to be arrogant. I'm giving advice based on my experience. There is music that is well suited to listening to without making an effort to understand its context, and there's music that doesn't respond well to that. Classical music is boring if you insist on listening to it in ignorance.

My experience, for what that's worth, is to find someone who really knows the music you're looking to investigate. Don't feel threatened by them because they know something you don't. Pump them for info. Get tips. Follow them. And immerse yourself into the particular music you've chosen and the information about it as much as you can. Learn it inside and out. Then move on to the next kind of music and do the same. There is an ocean of amazing music out there, but you will never know that unless you extend the effort to appreciate the music on its own terms.

In case you haven't noticed it, on the internet there are people who know what they're talking about right there cheek and jowl with those who haven't a clue. They both offer opinions. It really isn't hard to tell which is which. I know that the current generation embraces the hippie concept that "feeling" art is all you need, but you will feel it much stronger if you turn on your brain and think about it. Yes, that requires work. It requires asking the right questions, and following the advice when its given. An old school approach Is worth it.

[Rinaldo]

I know that the current generation embraces the hippie concept that "feeling" art is all you need, but you will feel it much stronger if you turn on your brain and think about it.

Who said anything about turning it off?

[Lethevich]

Bigshot: I feel that your ideas are more likely to lose potential classical fans than gain them. Let the music speak for itself: many people begin exploring music just by listening to the "tunes", but as they get to know what they are listening to, then they explore more deeply. To expect somebody looking to try to gain a foothold into the genre to treat it like work rather than pleasure is a poor suggestion.

I'm not saying totally ignore anything other than selected hits, but I feel your wall of text-style suggestions on how to listen are likely to discourage some from even trying.

[bigshot]

It says something about our times when three paragraphs constitute a wall of text.

If all it takes is just listening to the music, there's no point to discussion boards like this. There is a big difference between taste and appreciation. Everyone has a particular taste in things... My favorite color is red. I don't like the sound of the harmonica. Spicy food makes me sick... But these sorts of personal reactions don't apply to anyone else who might  like to eat chili on a green table while Blind Lemon Jefferson records play in the background. The opinions that do matter are the ones based on knowledge, not taste.

I don't think I'm scaring off anyone who wouldn't be scared off anyway. People can post to forums that they'd like recommendations for classical music that sounds like heavy metal or hip hop or electronica, and folks can give them suggestions of Messiaen or Holst or Bartok. But the truth is, classical sounds like classical and you have to be willing to come to it on its own terms. 99.9% of the people who aren't willing to do that are going to go away saying to themselves, "I don't like classical music" but that's not because of anything I said. It's because their approach dooms them from the start.

All of us who love classical music and have an appreciation for it have sat down and read liner notes. We've googled wikipedia pages on composers, and we've discussed the music in Internet forums like this. That's how we developed our appreciation. It isn't being rude or arrogant to suggest to other people that if they'd like to cultivate an appreciation of classical music that they might want to do the same.

A newbie has heard classical music before that obviously appeals to them on some basic level. If not, they wouldn't be here. So the next step is to ask what the next step is. The next step is to pick an area to start and start seriously listening and reading about it. If you aren't willing to do that, you might as well just turn the radio to a classical station and absorb it randomly and without context and see what appeals to your personal tastes. You don't need recommendations to do that.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, whilst I might not care for it spelled out and put baldly like that, the fact is that this is how I learned to love classical music too. I had always enjoyed the sound of virtuoso violin playing (still do!) so I discovered that violin concertos were a likely place to hear what I liked. In the process I discovered well over a hundred composers, ranging from Vivaldi to Shostakovich. In some of them, their violin concerti are still all I have of their music (Alban Berg, for example). In others, I have virtually their complete works (Vivaldi, for example). But in the process, I learned some stuff. I wish that Wikipedia had existed back then!

In any case, however you approach it, you will never learn to truly love classical music unless you learn something about it as you listen. That said, you have to start listening someplace, and it should be with things you are familiar with. If it is electronica, then so be it. Some people here live for that. But inevitably you must stretch out and grab more of what's out there. You never know where you will end up.



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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood / Beznosiuk / Kelly - K 297c 299 Flute & Harp Concerto in C 2nd mvmt - Andantino

[bigshot]

You never know where you will end up

Boy! You can say that again!

With me, the "eureka moment" came when I happened to hear Cab Calloway's "Some of These Days" on the radio. Up to then, I had listened mostly to the same sorts of music my friends listened to... Talking Heads, Pink Floyd, the Clash, etc. Then this song comes on the radio that sounds like it's from the planet Mars. It has all the energy and excitement I could ever hope for. I lived one block from Rhino Records in Westwood, so I walked over there and asked the guy at the counter if they had "Some of These Days" by Cab Calloway. He said "sure" and pointed me to the jazz stacks. I bought that record and took it home and played it over and over trying to figure it out.

I went back to Rhino a few days later and told the guy there, "I like Cab Calloway. What else should I listen to?" he told me the style of music was called Harlem Jazz, and I would also like Duke Ellington, Fats Waller and 30s Louis Armstrong. I got some more records and started branching out. I got ahold of Cab's autobiography and a book on Louis Armstrong and I devoured them, jotting down the names of other musicians mentioned to check them out too. That led me to Bix and Benny... which led me to Billie Holiday and Lionel Hapton and Gene Krupa... Suddenly, there was more music I liked than I could keep up with.

Jazz led me to Latin jazz, which led me to Cuban mambo. At the same time I was discovering jump blues and early r&b. I was awash in incredible music that I never imagined I would like. That's when I said to myself, "well, if I like jazz, why not see if classical has something for me too?" I started with the Russians, and pretty soon I was on to Stravinsky and Beethoven and Mendelssohn and Bach. The whole world opened up like a flower.

Since then, I've explored folk music and easy listening and 50s rock n roll and soul and even (gasp!) COUNTRY MUSIC! It all is packed with treasures like I never imagined. I found out that a lot of the things I learned about jazz helped me understand classical better, and country music taught me things about jazz. It all connects into one big language with a million local dialects.

But the music had been there all the time, and it was great and had great things to say long before I started listening to it. So what had changed?

I had.

If you aren't willing to change, music will always be a tight, closed pool of the same ol' same ol'. Anything outside of your limited frame of reference will seem foreign or boring. But if you do make the effort to understand and appreciate, ALL kinds of music will have something to say to you, and there won't be enough hours in the day to hear everything you want to hear just once... much less enough times to absorb it.

I sit here in my house surrounded by tens of thousands of records and CDs covering entire walls, and I'm as happy as a pig in mud because I will have exciting new music to discover until the day I die. Call me arrogant, but I'd never go back to listening just to the tiny batch of stuff I listened to in college. That crap is a million miles behind me now.

I'll go out of my way to help others on their own road of musical discovery, because there are some massively knowledgable people who did that for me. But I won't have the patience for people who just want to satisfy some arbitrary personal taste without the willingness to go the extra mile to learn about the music they're listening to. They don't need advice. All they need is a radio.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, now you sound absolutely positive, which becomes you far more than negative.

My earliest music experiences were Big Band Swing (from my mother) and Mozart & Haydn (from my father). I was one of those very fortunate people who had music blessed on me in the cradle. I completely agree, you must be open to new listening adventures. I nearly made the mistake of shutting things out in my late teens when I got away from "my parents' music" and got stuck in a groove for 20 years or so. I am pleased for myself that I was able to shake that off and get back into multi-modal listening. Even though I am primarily Classical these days, it is spread over 250 years, so that's not really limited as much as it could be.



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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Robert Levin - Bia 130 Op 16 Quintet in Eb for Fortepiano & Winds 1st mvmt - Grave - Allegro

[bigshot]

One more quick thing. If there are any newbies who are interested in really exploring classical music... If you are willing to invest $150 for a basic library of the core repertoire with brilliant performances and great sound, just ask. $150 for enough music to keep you busy for a year. All you have to do is ask and let me know you're willing to put in the effort to understand and appreciate it. I'll turn you on to the deal of the century. I'm also willing to share tips if you find anything in there that you'd like to explore further.

[(poco) Sforzando]

There is music that is well suited to listening to without making an effort to understand its context, and there's music that doesn't respond well to that. Classical music is boring if you insist on listening to it in ignorance.

My experience, for what that's worth, is to find someone who really knows the music you're looking to investigate. Don't feel threatened by them because they know something you don't. Pump them for info. Get tips. Follow them. And immerse yourself into the particular music you've chosen and the information about it as much as you can. Learn it inside and out. Then move on to the next kind of music and do the same. There is an ocean of amazing music out there, but you will never know that unless you extend the effort to appreciate the music on its own terms.

In case you haven't noticed it, on the internet there are people who know what they're talking about right there cheek and jowl with those who haven't a clue. They both offer opinions. It really isn't hard to tell which is which. I know that the current generation embraces the hippie concept that "feeling" art is all you need, but you will feel it much stronger if you turn on your brain and think about it. Yes, that requires work. It requires asking the right questions, and following the advice when its given. An old school approach Is worth it.

Let's flip this about for a bit. How much "learning classical music inside and out" is "enough" before you're entitled to listen to it? Do you have to read composer biographies and/or album notes, play Chopin mazurkas at the piano, study harmony and counterpoint, read full scores and reduce them at the piano on sight, read a full-scale music history like Taruskin or Grout, understand the structure of sonata form well enough to identify the start of the second subject in the Eroica (not as clear-cut as you might think), orchestrate Beethoven sonata movements for a full orchestra, write a four-voice fugue, compose an opera? Can you do or have you done all the above?

Not everyone chooses to be "knowledgeable," and there are all kinds of levels of knowledge when it comes to music. What's more, people tend to approach it in the messiest, least systematic ways. I don't mind if people remain "ignorant" so long as they are attentive listeners. Some of the best writing on music I've seen on Internet forums has come from people without much training or education.

[bigshot]

My point wasn't that there is a minimum amount of knowledge required to appreciate classical music. It was that if you are not willing to read liner notes and learn about the lives of the composers and forms, you aren't going to get much out of it. Obviously, your understanding will grow and your musical horizons will broaden as you learn more and more. I learn new things about music I'm already familiar with all the time.

I've always tried to learn about music from people who know a lot more about it than I do. I don't feel threatened by that. I see it as an opportunity to learn. Making an effort to learn and understand is very important. If you don't feel that way, and you aren't willing to address the music on its own terms, listening to classical music will be a pointless exercise, much like reading a book in a language you don't speak.

We are all born ignorant with ignorant tastes and opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. but there's no honor in choosing to remain that way. If only there were enough days in a life to eliminate all of our ignorance...

[Bulldog]

One more quick thing. If there are any newbies who are interested in really exploring classical music... If you are willing to invest $150 for a basic library of the core repertoire with brilliant performances and great sound, just ask. $150 for enough music to keep you busy for a year. All you have to do is ask and let me know you're willing to put in the effort to understand and appreciate it. I'll turn you on to the deal of the century. I'm also willing to share tips if you find anything in there that you'd like to explore further.

What do I get for my $150?

[bigshot]

The 60 CD Living Stereo box set which constitutes a basic library of core repertoire in great performances and audiophile binaural sound. It's the best bargain out there for people interested in investigating classical music for the first time.

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Stereo-60-Collection-Box/dp/B003UCPEJ2/

That box will keep a music lover busy for a very long time.

[Scarpia]

The 60 CD Living Stereo box set which constitutes a basic library of core repertoire in great performances and audiophile binaural sound.

To my knowledge Living Stereo never made any binaural recordings.

I don't think it is a very good set for a new listener because RCA Living Stereo focused disproportionately on popular 19th century repertoire at the expense of anything older than Beethoven or the least bit edgy.