Dumb newbie question - length of a work?

[DavidRoss]

Per Bruce & Scarpia's excellent suggestions, here's a youtube clip of the complete Concerto for Orchestra:

http://www.youtube.com/v/jKl2X4ubs6c

Or Prokofiev's 3rd Piano Concerto:

http://www.youtube.com/v/KDfGBmbNbMw&feature=related

Or Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZmUHI2yTtVY&feature=related

Or Adams's Short Ride in a Fast Machine:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Pi4A9bPDvTc

Or RVW's Lark Ascending:

http://www.youtube.com/v/wbcuteYm-EA

or even:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fdjhNN0R-XU&feature=related

[jochanaan]

Well, so far I'm not making much progress.  This is starting to feel more like an academic exercise than an enjoyable form of entertainment.

Perhaps I'm placing too much emphasis on repeated listening to a piece before forming an opinion.  Perhaps I'm just trying to hard to get something out of Brandenburg I at the expense of moving on and trying something else.   I listened to four different YouTube postings several times a week since my original post, then let it alone for a week until running through all four again today.  I like some performances better than others and I'm not displeased by any of them, but there's no 'bang' there; no imagery, no emotions inspired or conveyed.  I know I'm not going to like EVERYTHING any more than I would with any other genre of music, and maybe I started with something I may never actively like.  I'm not ready to give up but it's obviously time to move on to another work, either B II or something else.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

Hmmm...There are a couple of ways you can go if it's "starting to feel like an academic exercise."  One is simply to bask in the sounds, let the music wash over you, perhaps as you're doing something else.  Another is to check out technical aspects like, what happens to the opening theme once it's stated?  Is there any relation between, say, themes in the first and third movements?  Which trumpeters can really play that jaw-dropping part in Brandenburg 2 and make it effective?  What kind of an oboe sound works best for B1's second movement?  Such features were among the things that fascinated me with the Brandenburgs from the first.

[Opus106]

Another is to check out technical aspects like, what happens to the opening theme once it's stated?  Is there any relation between, say, themes in the first and third movements?  Which trumpeters can really play that jaw-dropping part in Brandenburg 2 and make it effective?  What kind of an oboe sound works best for B1's second movement?  Such features were among the things that fascinated me with the Brandenburgs from the first.

That sounds like an academic exercise to me.

I'd go with your first suggestion. It's not a taboo to have the music play in the background while you're doing something else. Of course, once you're hooked on to the music, something else might have to wait for some other time.

[mc ukrneal]

Since you are looking for a starting place to get into the music, I'd suggest not too much repeat listening unless you really loved it and want to hear it again (meaning don't force it). Right now, I'd look to explore a bit. Some people have posted some good examples (especially the Gershwin and Rimsky-Korsakov). I would suggest a few more, trying to pick some different composers:

Strauss II - Die Fledermaus (the Bat): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqJK_s7I9EY
Holst - Mars, from the Planets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmExy4tF4Q
Tchaikovsky - Swan Lake excerpt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P_5pjHee5I&feature=channel
Mozart - Overture from the Marriage of Figaro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgSPCWSAACs
Chopin - Ballade #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6VxVmt6UOA
Beethoven - start of 3rd movement from Piano Concerto #5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4zpyTi_MTw
Dvorak - Slavonic Dances 1-3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7WSmygW-gM
Elgar - First movement from Cello Concerto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5C99JyP2ns
Gliere - Russian Sailor's Dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJgZ-GiPlvM
Brahms - First movement of Piano Trio #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj26RzWKq38

If you don't like something, just go on to the next one. Let us know if you do come across something you like (whether posted here or on your own).

[Palmetto]

We've already determined I'm not afraid of looking ignorant so, ...

What's a theme?  Is it different from a melody?  What can happen to it?
Oboes make different sounds?  I presume you mean other than individual notes and chords.

Sorry, but I'm with Opus106; you're making this sound more like an academic exercise, not less like one.  I have no musical training.  My only exposure to what I'll call 'orchestral instruments' is via popular media - movie soundtracks, commercials, etc.  I don't know that I can differentiate an oboe from a bassoon from a french horn when they're played individually, much less with multiple other instruments (yet).  Unfortunately, I'll  have to ask you to dumb down your terminology.

In the meantime I'm going to try the suggested pieces, taking the approach of listening for something that grabs me immediately instead of over time.

[mc ukrneal]

We've already determined I'm not afraid of looking ignorant so, ...

What's a theme?  What can happen to it?
Oboes make different sounds?  I presume you mean other than individual notes and chords.

Sorry, but I'm with Opus106; you're making this sound more like an academic exercise, not less like one.  I have no musical training.  My only exposure to what I'll call 'orchestral instruments' is via popular media - movie soundtracks, commercials, etc.  Unfortunately, I'll  have to ask you to dumb down your suggestions.

In the meantime, I'm going to try the suggested pieces, taking the approach of listening for something that grabs me immediately instead of over time.

All good questions. A theme is the main melody and the theme can change or develop as the piece goes on.  Wikipedia writes, "[A] theme is the material, usually a recognizable melody, upon which part or all of a composition is based."

I think jochanaan was trying to give you different ideas on how to listen to the Bach piece, but I would put that suggestion to the side for the time being. I'm not entirely sure what he means by the different Oboe sound myself, so we'll both learn on that one.

EDIT: And don't hesitate to ask questions - happy to help. Besides, we don't charge much! 

[Opus106]

What's a theme?  Is it different from a melody?  What can happen to it?
Oboes make different sounds?  I presume you mean other than individual notes and chords.

I will not attempt to answer your questions, but I will recommend you to listen to these BBC programmes...

Rhythm: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0401slat1of4.ram
Melody: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0402slat2of4.ram
Harmony: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0403slat3of4.ram
Tone Colour: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0404slat4of4.ram

And when you have the time, pretty much the rest of the episodes as well: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/listeninglibrary.shtml

In the first four links, conductor Leonard Slatkin, along with one of the BBC orchestras, helps the beginner to understand these basic elements of western music. These were based on the book by Aaron Copland (a well-known American composer), What to Listen for in Music?. I have a copy, but beyond a point I did not find it useful, as he tends to use excerpts from sheet music/score, which I don't know how to read yet. And an advantage of the programmes over the book is that examples like an excerpt from a symphony are performed then and there, so that it becomes easier to grasp what Slatkin is talking about.

My only exposure to what I'll call 'orchestral instruments' is via popular media - movie soundtracks, commercials, etc.  I don't know that I can differentiate an oboe from a bassoon from a french horn when they're played individually, much less with multiple other instruments (yet).

I didn't either, when I started listening to this music about five years ago. Familiarity solves the problem. Listen to the music, watch a few videos on YouTube to see who is playing what, read a little about the instruments, and in no time, you should be able to tell instruments apart.

[Palmetto]

Apparently it's not Windows Media Player.  I assume an .MP3 player won't know what to do with it either.

[DavidRoss]

Apparently it's not Windows Media Player.  I assume an .MP3 player won't know what to do with it either.

That's "Real Media" -- used to be a standard till got cluttered with junkware, still used by many streaming sites.  See http://www.real.com/realplayer/affiliate

[Opus106]

Apparently it's not Windows Media Player.  I assume an .MP3 player won't know what to do with it either.

It's Real Audio, unfortunately; if you have Real Media Player, it should work. However, I remember someone somewhere posting the entire archive in mp3. I'll post the links if I find them.

[mc ukrneal]

Apparently it's not Windows Media Player.  I assume an .MP3 player won't know what to do with it either.

You can download real media player for free.

[Opus106]

I found the links at SymphonyShare, but the files have been deleted. But the person who posted them has most of the programmes on his blog: http://histoiresoldat.blogspot.com/search/label/BBC%20Radio3%20Discovering%20music

[bhodges]

Just as an aside about media players: I've been using this one from VideoLAN (www.videolan.org) for about two years now, and it will play seemingly anything. I use it for both audio and video files, and it's free to download.

--Bruce

[Palmetto]

Opus106's links led me to Google 'BBC Radio 3 Discovering Music'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tn54

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/listeninglibrary.shtml

Apparently 'full content' programs have a 1-week shelf life, but they open in a separate browser with no additional software.  Coincidentally, one still available this week looks at ... the Brandenburgs.  I'll give it a whirl to see if that helps with my past month's labors, then check some of the older, limited content shows that may correspond to everyone's recent recommendations.

Thanks for your patience.

[Palmetto]

I've tried Il Barone Scarpia's suggestion of Beethoven's 7th symphony, along with the Youtube videos Brewski and Sherman Peabody provided links to.  Maybe it was the Columbia University recording of Beethoven, or maybe I just don't know how to juggle the multiple volume controls across Windows, YouTube, and my speakers.  I'm constantly fiddling with the volume to either increase sounds I can't hear or keep from blowing out my eardrums.  I admit this is complicated by trying to keep the beeps of incoming e-mail and other system sounds at a moderate level.  I seem able to redirect Windows Media Player to my headphones while leaving all other sounds on my external speakers, but it doesn't look like I can do the same with YouTube / Firefox.

I don't remember having this trouble with the Brandenburg I via YouTube.

Any suggestions?  I realize this more of a technology question than a musical one, but I assume some of y'all have more experience with some of these tools than I do.

[Scarpia]

I've tried Il Barone Scarpia's suggestion of Beethoven's 7th symphony, along with the Youtube videos Brewski and Sherman Peabody provided links to.  Maybe it was the Columbia University recording of Beethoven, or maybe I just don't know how to juggle the multiple volume controls across Windows, YouTube, and my speakers.  I'm constantly fiddling with the volume to either increase sounds I can't hear or keep from blowing out my eardrums.  I admit this is complicated by trying to keep the beeps of incoming e-mail and other system sounds at a moderate level.  I seem able to redirect Windows Media Player to my headphones while leaving all other sounds on my external speakers, but it doesn't look like I can do the same with YouTube / Firefox.

I don't remember having this trouble with the Brandenburg I via YouTube.

Any suggestions?  I realize this more of a technology question than a musical one, but I assume some of y'all have more experience with some of these tools than I do.

That is one of the main glories of "classical" music, dramatic dynamic contrasts.   Music that goes from quiet passages with a few instruments playing, to thundering climaxes with a hundred instruments (including kettle drums, bass drum and cymbals, maybe a gong) playing for all they are worth.  It is very different from pop music, where music is electronically processed to suppress any fluctuations in volume.   

Ideally you should listen in a quiet environment and adjust the volume so that the loudest passages are as loud as you are comfortable with and the soft passages are still audible.  In a noisy environment, fiddling with the volume control may be necessary.   The right equipment can also be a big factor.  The most cost effective way to get good sound from a computer is typically a moderately priced set of headphones and an external sound card that attaches by USB.

On an unrelated note, I think this one might qualify for best use of a gong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cryf6nruD_I

[Palmetto]

What do you consider moderately priced?  Until now, my prime criteria for headphones has an unshielded cord to improve FM reception and a solid fit so they don't shift or fall off when I'm working in the yard.  Audio quality isn't much of a factor for 'Car Talk', news programming, or other 'listen once and discard' formats.

As to pop music being less dynamic in volume, I think that statement might be stereotyping as much as saying classical music is dull.  Many (unfortunately not enough) pop musicians have come from classical roots.  Pat Benetar studied opera at a conservatory level.  Gods know Jim Steinman has listened to way too much Wagner.  Barry Manilow, among others, has had pop hits with adaptations of classical pieces.  I'd be greatly disappointed to learn that of first chair violinists who haven't at least occasionally tried a bit of country fiddling, or of a concert pianist who doesn't sneak in a little 'Great Balls of Fire" when warming up.

My apologies for adding additional remarks after Scarpia had already quoted this.

[Scarpia]

What do you consider moderately priced?  Until now, my prime criteria for headphones has an unshielded cord to improve FM reception and a solid fit so they don't shift or fall off when I'm working in the yard.  Audio quality isn't much of a factor for 'Car Talk', news programming, or other 'listen once and discard' formats.

I'm a fanatic and have a pair that cost me $300 (probably there are others here who paid a lot more).  But I also have headphones in the $20-50 range that are pretty good. 

The best site I know for seeing what is available is www.headphone.com

The site has reviews, ratings, and explanations of different styles of headphone.

[Szykneij]

As to pop music being less dynamic in volume, I think that statement might be stereotyping as much as saying classical music is dull.  Many (unfortunately not enough) pop musicians have come from classical roots.  Pat Benetar studied opera at a conservatory level.  Gods know Jim Steinman has listened to way too much Wagner.  Barry Manilow, among others, has had pop hits with adaptations of classical pieces.

No, pop music is less dynamic in volume than classical. Can you name a Barry Manilow, Pat Benatar or Meatloaf tune that has any significant dynamic variation at all? Certainly none that would be played by a Top 40 station.

[mc ukrneal]

What do you consider moderately priced?  Until now, my prime criteria for headphones has an unshielded cord to improve FM reception and a solid fit so they don't shift or fall off when I'm working in the yard.  Audio quality isn't much of a factor for 'Car Talk', news programming, or other 'listen once and discard' formats.

Price is less important as there are good headphones at every price point. A good resource is head-fi forum if you are interested in getting advice. There are a lot of helpful and knowledgeable people over there.

That said, you could get a Senn PX100 or low level Koss for $30-50. It wil be a nice step up at a reasonable price. Alternatively, there is the Senn HD 595, a very all around can that might suit you better in some ways as it is built to be all around (at least marketed that way) and can be had for $150. But I would suggest setting your price first (if you choose to get anything) and then match the phone to your price level.