The Bi-weekly Listening and Appreciation Thread: Gaspard de la nuit [2/3/2011]

[Szykneij]

I have a nice recording of Gaspard de la nuit by Idil Biret that I'm listening to now. I don't have any other performers on CD. I'll check my vinyl tomorrow.

[Bogey]

Absolutely love this piece.....great on a rainy day.  Will give a listen to the couple I have.

[Bogey]

This morning:

[asin]B0002XV2Y8[/asin]
Gaspard de la nuit
Recorded 1978



Gaspard de la nuit
Recorded 1937-38(?)


I know that we want to discuss the composition more than recordings, but with the two above I found that the Gieseking leaned toward  a more "atmospheric" sound.  The first movement really calls for this.  I also find the whole composition to work best for me pre-dawn or just at dawn.  The setting is perfect for this piece IMO.  Those opening notes from the Ondine are some of the most comforting and beautiful piano music I have ever heard and this carries throughout for all three movements, even when it picks up a tinge darkness and steam in the 3rd movement.  Haunting, but beautiful.

Dave, would it be ok if I posted some structural notes from the web, or would that lock in too many thoughts this early on?

[Bogey]

Now listening to:


Recorded 1974

A totally different feel....still an absolutely lovely start.

[Scarpia]

Just remembered I have this collection.
[asin]B000007QCI[/asin]

[Bogey]

That set is on my wish-list, Scarpia.

[Szykneij]

Absolutely love this piece.....great on a rainy day.  Will give a listen to the couple I have.

Luckily, it's equally as great on a snowy day.

Listening to this one now (1985 release).

[Bogey]

Luckily, it's equally as great on a snowy day.

Listening to this one now (1985 release).

It's an "inclement" piece for sure.

[Szykneij]

When I initially heard the repeated octave b-flat in the second movement (Le Gibet) I envisioned the note as a pedal tone (pedal point), but I've since seen it referred to elsewhere as an ostinato. It seems to me the figure doesn't have enough rhythmic diversity to qualify as a true ostinato, but after refreshing my memory of the correct definition of pedal tone, perhaps the harmonic function of the note disqualifies using that term. I'd like to find a score to the piece. Have any of our pianists ever performed it?

[karlhenning]

I feel certain that Luke has worked with the piece more than once.

[Todd]

   




I love Gaspard, so I decided to listen to a few versions.  I chose three dissimilar takes to compare and contrast: Abbey Simon, Herbert Schuch, and good ole' Michelangeli, from 1959 on BBC Legends.

I started with Abbey Simon.  Of the three pianists I chose, he treats the work in the most overtly virtuosic fashion.  As a result, some ultra-fine nuance seems to go missing in the first movement.  It's not enough to detract from the music, and one does get to marvel in some high octane playing.  The second movement is suitably austere and gloomy, but it's in Scarbo where Simon really nails it.  Of these three versions, his is the most intense, demonic (pianistically speaking), and thunderous.  Indeed, Simon's climaxes thunder while the other versions only grumble in comparison.  Scarbo is one malignant little goblin here.  A thoroughly enjoyable recording.

Next up was Herbert Schuch, one of my favorite young ivory ticklers out there.  He owns Ondine.  His is the most beautiful and seductive of the three takes here, and it bests any version that readily comes to mind.  He lavishes his attention on the minutest detail, bringing to the fore parts that may not get the attention they deserve in other recordings.  Some may find it too much attention to fine detail.  Not me, at least in the opener.  Le gibet is dark and eerie, but Schuch's unfailing beauty may detract just a hint from the piece.  His Scarbo certainly lacks the pyrotechnics of Simon, and his attention to detail halts forward progress at times; his playing takes on an almost Pogorelichian, self-absorbed feel at times, and he never makes the climaxes quite powerful enough, though his playing is wonderfully fluid throughout.  He wants to focus on smaller details.  Don't get me wrong, I love this recording, but it's focused on details above all.

That leaves Michelangeli.  Of the three recordings here, I'd have to say that his is the weakest, though that hardly means it's a weak performance.  Were it not for Schuch's seductive opener, I'd say Michelangeli's were one of the better ones out there.  It still is, but Schuch just does it more to my taste.  Le gibet, well Michelangeli is the master here.  Cold and desolate, perfectly paced, with almost inhumanly perfect ostinato (in an actual performance), everything is there.  Alas, Scarbo is too small in scale, not malicious enough, and sounds strangely stiff and focused on details, though different details than Schuch.  It makes for a somewhat unbalanced performance for me.  I do confess that I like this work to go out on a high note, with a more virtuosic closer.

Of the three I listened to yesterday and today, I'd have to say that Schuch is my favorite overall.  That written, perhaps I should try a few more.  Perhaps Argerich, Pogorelich, and Ashkenazy's 60s version would offer a nice contrast . . .

[springrite]

Listened to the following recordings twice today.

Argerich
Ranki
Pogorelich
Bachauer
Thibaldet
Michalengeli

Since I am the primary babysitter for the month, hardly have time to post with much articulation. Will try to do so soon. Great listening experience, though!

[mc ukrneal]

I know that we want to discuss the composition more than recordings, but with the two above I found that the Gieseking leaned toward  a more "atmospheric" sound.  The first movement really calls for this.  I also find the whole composition to work best for me pre-dawn or just at dawn.  The setting is perfect for this piece IMO.  Those opening notes from the Ondine are some of the most comforting and beautiful piano music I have ever heard and this carries throughout for all three movements, even when it picks up a tinge darkness and steam in the 3rd movement.  Haunting, but beautiful.

Dave, would it be ok if I posted some structural notes from the web, or would that lock in too many thoughts this early on?

I, personally, would appreciate this. I have looked up some stuff on my own, so I now have a better understanding, but more would be useful. I don't think I had ever listened to this piece until today.

As to the piece, a tale of two performances. I listened to different performances, and that has made a huge difference. I have put my comments below of each separately. The Hewitt came first, followed by some Michelangeli (who was recommended above) on youtube. I listened to excerpts of a few others as well. I can see now how differently they play the piece. Michelangeli gives the piece clearer structure and provides a nice arc/forward movement to the piece. Hewitt seems to focus too much on some of the details of the moment, and doesn't always connect them together as well. I hated her Ondine. I liked Michelangeli's. Anyway, some comments here (and I have left the original Hewitt comments so you could see the change/evolution of views)...


Ondine (Hewitt) -oh my! All the frill trilly stuff and it goes on and on and on and on and on. Finally after 2-3 minutes, we get to some more interesting bits and there is better overarching structure to the piece (admittedly, on the second listen, I hear the overlying structure earlier, but the trills/frills are so irritating). I understand the trills/frills are supposed to be moonlight on the water? Is this correct? Not convinced. This is painful for me to listen to.

Ondine (Micahelangeli) on youtube: Holy cow! The structure of the piece is immediately apparent from the first note and so is the texture. The trills are now a part of the whole instead of being somehow outside of it. The buildup to the central portion and ending are much clearer and the Ravel sound is much more beautiful (even though recording quality is worse).  Just based on this, I can throw my Hewitt recording 'out the window' so to speak.

Gibet (Hewitt) - The tension is great if you like this sort of thing and the solemnness is outstanding.  There is a certain beauty to this. I could see myself growing to love this piece. I could also see myself hating the repeated bells if I listened too often.

Gibet (Mich) - Slightly less attention to the bell, which could make this more listenable on a repeated basis, but to be honest, not so terribly different from Hewitt (at least compared to Ondine). He plays it a bit colder/impersonal. Hewitt has a bit more passion. (Listening to Richter on this, he brings out the...dschordant aspects...even more at times). There is only so often I could listen to this piece I think.

Scarbo (Hewitt) - Finally. This portion initially strikes me as far more interesting than the other two. I enjoyed it here. But it is more complex, so may require more time to get a handle on. On a repeated listen, I thought it more static than the others even though there seemingly is more going on in terms of piano acrobatics. This movement is less memorable for me.

Scarbo (Mich) - Makes the struture easier to see (although I have already listened to it once) and thus, easier to see where he is heading. To be honest, by the third listen of everything, my ear is starting to get tired. I may need to revisit this in a few days. But the movement does not have the same staying power for me. In my mind, I have a clear harmonic and associative memory for the the first two parts. After Scarbo ends, I don't have much memory at all - dischord perhaps. Interesting that my reaction to the movement is identical regardless of who plays it (so far).

And the final verdict: Well, still working on that one. I'd like to let it percolate for a few days.

[MishaK]

Ondine (Micahelangeli) on youtube: Holy cow! The structure of the piece is immediately apparent from the first note and so is the texture. The trills are now a part of the whole instead of being somehow outside of it.

Trills? Do you mean the right hand ostinato?

When some of you write of the emotional content, or lack thereof, of a given performer's interpretation, or even coldness, I wonder if you have actually read the poems by Aloysius Bertrand which preface this work:

Poem translations

Eerie coldness is actually what I would want for Le Gibet here, I'd think.

[mc ukrneal]

Trills? Do you mean the right hand ostinato?

When some of you write of the emotional content, or lack thereof, of a given performer's interpretation, or even coldness, I wonder if you have actually read the poems by Aloysius Bertrand which preface this work:

Poem translations

Eerie coldness is actually what I would want for Le Gibet here, I'd think.

Ostinato - perhaps. It sounds very much like a trill to me. Perhaps that is a woodwind term, which is my background.

As to the poem, I believe I read it - the Hyperion booklet includes them. I cannot open your link (may be an issue of the country I am currently in) to see if I only read a portion of it or the whole thing.

[MishaK]

Ostinato - perhaps. It sounds very much like a trill to me. Perhaps that is a woodwind term, which is my background.

The right hand accompaniment - if that's what you mean - that opens the piece and persists for most of the time throughout, is actually a pattern like this:

qbqqbqqbqbqqbqqbqbqqbqqbqbqqbqq etc. not a trill qbqbqbqbqbqbqb

It's actually a biotch to get even and rhythmically right and not get tripped up.

[mc ukrneal]

The right hand accompaniment - if that's what you mean - that opens the piece and persists for most of the time throughout, is actually a pattern like this:

qbqqbqqbqbqqbqqbqbqqbqqbqbqqbqq etc. not a trill qbqbqbqbqbqbqb

It's actually a biotch to get even and rhythmically right and not get tripped up.

Ok thanks. Many aspects of the piece seem difficult, so I believe it.

[The Diner]

The BBC Michelangeli hit yesterday. May listen this evening...

And...the thread needed a bump. 

[Bogey]

The BBC Michelangeli hit yesterday. May listen this evening...

And...the thread needed a bump. 

Well, just have a Mahler piece next go around and you can let it ride for a year or two.

[Luke]

When I initially heard the repeated octave b-flat in the second movement (Le Gibet) I envisioned the note as a pedal tone (pedal point), but I've since seen it referred to elsewhere as an ostinato. It seems to me the figure doesn't have enough rhythmic diversity to qualify as a true ostinato, but after refreshing my memory of the correct definition of pedal tone, perhaps the harmonic function of the note disqualifies using that term. I'd like to find a score to the piece. Have any of our pianists ever performed it?

I feel certain that Luke has worked with the piece more than once.

Yes, I have. Haven't posted on this thread, even though Ravel is close to my heart, and even though this is his greatest work for solo piano, because when I last looked it was essentially a list of recordings, and I'm not well-placed to take part in that particular discussion. But discussion of the piece itself, I'm very happy to do.

The score is here, btw - http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/e/e0/IMSLP03178-Ravel-Gaspard.Durand.pdf

The question above is about terminology - is the repeating B flat (later A sharp) octave an ostinato or a pedal note? And later, re the opening figure of Ondine, we have another mild ruffle of contention - is it a trill, or an ostinato? In both cases, I think, the answer is both = the octave B flat is a pedal tone which runs through countless harmonic contexts like a disturbing idee fixe, unflappable (nearly - actually there are a couple of places where technical considerations mean it becomes slightly dislodged), fateful as the gibbet bell it represents. And it's an ostinato too, because it does have enough repeating diversity, both rhythmic and also registral (sometimes only the top B flat plays) to be that also. And the Ondine figure - if it's heard as a trill, it is one, and certainly it has the basics of a trill in there, the neighbour-note alternations. And at the same time, clearly it isn't a trill, not a textbook ones - it is written out, it alternates a chord with a single note, and most importantly there is a repeated note built into the pattern. An ostinato, then? - yes, technically, but it is so much quicker than an ostinato usually is - it dissolves into itself, it shimmers like a single protracted entity smudged through the piece.

That deliberately confused last paragraph is merely to make the point I'm going to reinforce in another deliberately confused one - a point that could be magnified with other examples - that this is a piece in which boundaries of all sorts are blurred, an incredibly subtle work. Ostinati which are pedal notes, trills which are ostinati, scales so fast that they become single unified musical objects, harmonies which bleed into others harmonies, repeated notes so fast and furious they begin to fizz and crackle, pedal washes which dissolve into monody, hyper-expressive melodies to be played dead-straight, senza espr.,  bitonality, bars of minimalist figuration broken by random spasms,  tonal ambiguity constantly flirting with that symbolically 'other', devilish key, G # minor, transcendental virtuosity at the service of deep poetry, the hidden virtuosity of 'Le Gibet', in some senses the hardest of the lot, not in a prestidigital sense but for its famed 27 types of touch (Henri Gil-Marchex - an exaggeration, but a telling one) and the whole thing framed by these three poems haunted by spectres and death and flitting, fleeting states of being.

In a certain sense this piece is Ravel at his most Ravelian - in this case the haunted Ravel, but also the one who finds way to keep things at a distance. But then the same could easily be said about other Ravel pieces (and I have done so in the past for some of these) - L'enfant et les sortileges, L'heure espagnole, the two Concerti, the duo sonata, the Mallarme Poems, the Madagascan Poems, Ma Mere l'oye, the Trio, even a little song like the Noel des Jouets, or the Histoires Naturelles, or Ronsard a son ame: all in their own way are echt Ravel, and yet they are so different from each other. This is one way in which Ravel is similar to Janacek, I think - that he possess the rare power to be able to write pieces so drastically different to each other, each of which, as one listens to its, creates a world so complete that it seems to speak for the whole man.