Your Collection

[DavidRoss]

Opera is a visual medium as well as a sonic one.

Duh. Here's another bloody obvious observation: without the music, it ain't opera.  Just like without the pictures, it ain't movies.

You have every right to prefer seeing opera on blu-ray to seeing it live, and if you feel you need to justify your preference, there are dozens of reasons you can call on, including those you listed. I took no exception to your expressed preference, only to confusing your preference with an absolute measure of quality. That's a painfully common fault around here ... and everywhere else ordinary people are found, for that matter.

And please note that it's not for your sake that I offered the correction, but for the sake of Radi, the newbie who expressed an interest in learning about opera, lest he mistake your expression of opinion for a statement of fact.

Incidentally, I've enjoyed some of the Met's opera broadcasts in cinemas and think they're great. I hope to see more. But I doubt such broadcasts will displace opera any more than telecast football games put an end to people's enjoyment of long lines, high ticket prices, nightmarish parking, and boorish companions in the stands at the local sports stadium. And I rather think the Met believes that broadcast opera might revive interest in the real thing much as Rozelle's TV-centric shepherding of NFL football boosted interest in that pastime.

[DavidW]

On a good system, opera on bluray is actually better than opera in the opera house... Better sound, better view of the performers, more comfortable. There are many fantastic filmed opera performances now, I rarely pull out my operas on CD and listen to them all the way through any more. It feels like watching a movie with youreyes shut.

Same here.

[bigshot]

Duh.

Duh Duh

In the next few years, you'll see opera in high definition being streamed to people's home theaters on a subscription basis. You won't have to live in New York to go to the Met, and you'll be able to attend La Scala from your living room in Sheboygan. When that happens, many many more people will be viewing from the streaming feed than there are in the house. And they'll have better seats than anyone. I wouldn't be at all surprised if operas start being staged in locations rather than opera houses, because the streaming audience will become the profit center, not the live one.

Concert halls are becoming more and more expensive to operate. Technology will turn the concert hall inside out, creating virtual concert halls that turn more people on to opera than have attended it in the past twenty years. The same thing will happen to movie theaters. We'll have movie theaters in our homes, and the programs will come to us. We won't have to go to it.

Hopefully, we'll find better things to do on a Saturday night than to sit in a dark mall theater with sticky floors, or an uncomfortable overpriced seat in the rafters of the third balcony waiting for Brunnhilde to set fire to the joint.

A newbie can't get better advice than to explore the fantastic offerings on bluray. With a large screen and good speakers, the experience can't be topped.

[radi]

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'll keep those in mind the next time I feel like giving opera a chance. Can't force it of course, I don't really feel that much interest at the moment.
For me (for now at least) the choice must be bluray, dvd or cd. There's no live opera anywhere near from where I live. I'm sure both live and bluray have their good sides and bad sides.

Welcome to GMG, Radi!

Thank you

-radi

[DavidW]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if operas start being staged in locations rather than opera houses, because the streaming audience will become the profit center, not the live one.

The future is here, a year or two ago concerts, operas and musicals started being shown across the country in movie theaters for limited engagements with premium ticket pricing.  It is a great way to share the experience with a broader audience.

I see more of that happening with a big explosion in streaming (as you mentioned) and blu-ray releases.

[DavidRoss]

Thank you

You're welcome, radi. Enjoy it however you can. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that a video recording or webcast of an opera is the same as the real thing. The difference is more than just the frisson of a live symphony or chamber music performance. If you try opera videos and find they don't hold your interest, don't presume therefore that opera doesn't appeal to you without giving the real thing an honest try.

And once you find an opera or two that you really like, give yourself the gift of experiencing the real thing in a quality production some day. After all, it's one of the greatest art forms human beings have ever created. Would you think you had really had the full human experience if you had never visited art museums and seen great paintings in person, but had only seen photo reproductions in books and calendars?

You haven't said where you live, but even if there's nowhere close, you might consider planning that as something for your next vacation that includes a visit to a great city.

The future is here, a year or two ago concerts, operas and musicals started being shown across the country in movie theaters for limited engagements with premium ticket pricing. It is a great way to share the experience with a broader audience.

I see more of that happening with a big explosion in streaming (as you mentioned) and blu-ray releases.

Yep. It's the logical extension of radio broadcasts from the San Francisco Symphony or Metropolitan Opera. And though I would never mistake it for the real thing, I nevertheless love the opportunity we have these days to enjoy webcast performances from orchestras all over the world -- the BP's digital concert hall, for instance, which offers you 30 days of live and archived performances for about what it costs us in gasoline alone to attend one performance in San Francisco.

[DavidRoss]

It is a real thing; just a different real thing than the theater experience. 

I can see both sides of this argument; and used to side more with DavidRoss but have changed my attitude as technology has improved, rendering the experience of opera via DVD or one of the Met movie theater shows comparable (depending on your system) to the live performance.  In some ways, and for some people, it is superior.

Looks as if you still "side" with me. (Didn't know I was on a side.) You are clearly referring to people's individual judgments about the comparative quality of their personal experiences. For some people, the ability to spread out at home, munch chips, fart, belch, and cough at will, fast-forward through the dull parts (imagine: The Ring in twenty minutes!), and so on make their experience preferable to experiencing the real thing.  That's a given.

It's also a given that comparing filmed opera on DVD or other visual media with live opera on stage is like comparing apples and oranges -- or, to be more accurate, like comparing real apple sauce with an engineered apple-flavored synthetic puree that many people seem incapable of distinguishing from the real thing and which some doubtless prefer to the lumpy, inconsistent natural product it replaces.

[bigshot]

I'm going to say the thing that's the elephant in the corner in classical music circles... Live performance has become marginalized by recording. Classical music is primarily a recorded medium.

Everyone in forums say, "Listening to a recording isn't really hearing music. You have to go to concerts!" But I would bet that the people saying that are lucky to go to even three concerts a year, if that.

More people listen to classical music on their home stereos in a year than have attended concerts in the entire history of concert halls. If we depended on our local symphonies to hear music, we would know very few works. If we depended on our local music director to present it to us, we would have a very limited range of interpretation. We know so much about great music because of recordings. Concerts have become optional.

In the past, it was different for opera and ballet. Hearing an opera on LP or CD was just half the story. You had only a couple of photos in the liner notes to imagine the visuals. When presented on TV, the screen was so small, and the stagebound telecasts so static, it was a pale shadow of actually seeing the opera live. In order to give the production any momentum at all, TV producers would have to rotate through three camera angles, pretty much at random. I can't tell you how many ballets I saw on TV that didn't reflect the live performance at all because the camera stayed close on the principles. You never got a sense of the whole. You didn't have much of a choice because the screen was 19 inches. The sound of the orchestra was hobbled by being pushed through a three inch speaker. As a.representation of the operatic experience it was an approximation at best.

Right now in my home, I have a high definition projection system with a ten foot screen. The image is crystal clear, and the angle of view I have on performances is better than I get in the audience at the opera house. In fact, from my seat, the screen fills my entire view. On top of that, the direction of operas on video has improved. Camera placement and cutting has gotten to be as sophisticated as in movies. You always get the perfect shot to convey the action. My sound system is 5:1 surround with a frequency response from the lowest edge of human hearing to the uppermost. The sound comes from all around me, creating the uncannily realistic ambience of a large hall. When Mehta plays Ride of the Valkyries, the place rocks. When it's "che gelida manina" the quiet whisper is soft as it should be.

I have no plans to go to a live performance, even though we have the wonderful Walt Disney Concert Hall downtown. I don't need it. The concert hall is in my living room, and in the past year, I've attended more concerts, operas and ballets than I've seen live in my entire five decades on this Earth. As more people get video systems like mine, you'll find more people feeling the same about it as I do.

[bigshot]

For some people, the ability to spread out at home, munch chips, fart, belch, and cough at will, fast-forward through the dull parts (imagine: The Ring in twenty minutes!), and so on make their experience preferable to experiencing the real thing.

That may be how you watch video. In my house, the lights go down, a projection screen lowers automatically, the image fills the screen in front of me, the sound fills the room and I'm presented with an opera the same way I see movies in a theater. I don't think you've ever seen what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about TV sets. You probably will find out soon. The prices are dropping and more people are intalling home theaters.

[mc ukrneal]

Right now in my home, I have a high definition projection system with a ten foot screen. The image is crystal clear, and the angle of view I have on performances is better than I get in the audience at the opera house. On top of that, the direction of operas on video has improved. Camera placement and cutting has gotten to be as sophisticated as in movies. You always get the perfect shot to convey the action. My sound system is 5:1 surround with a frequency response from the lowest edge of human hearing to the uppermost. The sound comes from all around me, creating the uncannily realistic ambience of a large hall. When Mehta plays Ride of the Valkyries, the place rocks. When it's "che gelida manina" the quiet whisper is soft as it should be.

I have no plans to go to a live performance, even though we have the wonderful Walt Disney Concert Hall downtown. I don't need it. The concert hall is in my living room, and in the past year, I've attended more concerts, operas and ballets than I've seen live in my entire five decades on this Earth. As more people get video systems like mine, you'll find more people feeling the same about it as I do.

I don't disagree about much of what you said, but a live performance in the back row with limited view still gives me things that a recorded performance never will. There is also something about the sound of a singing voice that is hard to replicate in a recorded medium.

But there is no reason not to do both (or three if add going to the movie theater to watch a live version there). Just don't kid yourself that they are the same experience - they are not. With this, I am not trying to imply one is better or worse, but that they are different. Your experience in the opera house will differ from the experience in the movie theater and the experience at home.

[bigshot]

I've been to quite a few concerts, operas and vocal recitals. Until I got a dedicated listening/screening room, I might have agreed with you. But the sound of an orchestra in my theater is *better* than in the concert hall. Sound technology has taken giant leaps lately. CDs and bluray offer perfect sound... Stone flat frequency response, no audible distortion, a massive dynamic range and no noise whatsoever. But the biggest advance- one that many classical music listeners aren't aware of yet- is surround sound technology.

Most people are aware of surround sound in movies. Outer space zaps and rumbles flying all around you... But there is a LOT more to the technology than that. Most classical music fans are older and don't keep close tabs on what is happening in recorded sound. But a revolution is happening right now. Multichannel surround sound is the biggest audio advance since the introduction of stereo in the fifties. No lie.

The difference between 5:1 done right and stereo is as great as the difference between stereo and mono. It's the ability to place sound in three dimensional space, not just a two dimensional soundstage in front of you. But the most amazing part of the technology is the ability to create a convincing acoustic, which might be entirely different than the acoustic of the room you are listening in.

I first heard what 5:1 was capable of with Mehta's Valencia Ring on bluray. The sound field surrounded me entirely and the orchestra in front of me was dimensional and alive. When the horns blew, I could hear the natural reflection off the back wall of a large hall. I could pinpoint the position of the instruments in front of me. In fact, the left and right are reversed in Rhinegold, and you get a perfect image of the orchestra with the violin section on the right! There are a lot of other great classical surround blurays coming out, ballet from the Royal Ballet, Mahler symphonies, etc. Soon, surround will be a viable format for music, just like stereo and mono.

The sort of 5:1 sound done in the early days of surround is to real surround sound as those old ping pong stereo demonstration records were to true stereo. When you get a chance to hear what 5:1 or 7:1 sounds like with proper installation and full range speakers- not one of those Best Buy home theater in a box sets, it will absolutely blow your mind. It's *that* good.

[bigshot]

Can anyone who knows what I'm talking about recommend any blurays? The ones that have particularly impressed me are Mehta's Ring and the Royal Ballet's production of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. There is a pair of smpler blurays called the Opera Experience that have some great clips too.

[mc ukrneal]

I've been to quite a few concerts, operas and vocal recitals. Until I got a dedicated listening/screening room, I might have agreed with you. But the sound of an orchestra in my theater is *better* than in the concert hall. Sound technology has taken giant leaps lately. CDs and bluray offer perfect sound... Stone flat frequency response, no audible distortion, a massive dynamic range and no noise whatsoever. But the biggest advance- one that many classical music listeners aren't aware of yet- is surround sound technology.

Most people are aware of surround sound in movies. Outer space zaps and rumbles flying all around you... But there is a LOT more to the technology than that. Most classical music fans are older and don't keep close tabs on what is happening in recorded sound. But a revolution is happening right now. Multichannel surround sound is the biggest audio advance since the introduction of stereo in the fifties. No lie.

The difference between 5:1 done right and stereo is as great as the difference between stereo and mono. It's the ability to place sound in three dimensional space, not just a two dimensional soundstage in front of you. But the most amazing part of the technology is the ability to create a convincing acoustic, which might be entirely different than the acoustic of the room you are listening in.

I first heard what 5:1 was capable of with Mehta's Valencia Ring on bluray. The sound field surrounded me entirely and the orchestra in front of me was dimensional and alive. When the horns blew, I could hear the natural reflection off the back wall of a large hall. I could pinpoint the position of the instruments in front of me. In fact, the left and right are reversed in Rhinegold, and you get a perfect image of the orchestra with the violin section on the right! There are a lot of other great classical surround blurays coming out, ballet from the Royal Ballet, Mahler symphonies, etc. Soon, surround will be a viable format for music, just like stereo and mono.

The sort of 5:1 sound done in the early days of surround is to real surround sound as those old ping pong stereo demonstration records were to true stereo. When you get a chance to hear what 5:1 or 7:1 sounds like with proper installation and full range speakers- not one of those Best Buy home theater in a box sets, it will absolutely blow your mind. It's *that* good.

On this we will never agree. But hey, who cares, if you are watching opera!

[DavidW]

Heck yes Bigshot blu-rays are awesome! 

Still there is a sense of spacious, brightness and clarity in live performance that I have never found in recordings.  But then again I don't have uber-expensive equipment either.

[bigshot]

It's not just about which is better for personal education, enlightenment, entertainment and reflection... and while dvd/bds gladly serve that personal purpose with excellent fidelity they can not bring culture to the communities that we live in.

Culture desn't exist in the brck and mortar buildings we build. It exists in the hearts and minds of the people. We can pursue culture by preserving antiquated venues and traditions, but it won't work. Real culture will just become more and more irrelevent to society as a whole. The way to keep culture alive is to bring it to the people in a venue they actually use.

If black tie opera galas under crystal chandeliers die out, that doesn't mean that opera has died. Without taking advantage of up to date recording technology, classical music would have probably already died out by now.

By the way, great sounding 5:1 projection systems really aren't all that expensive. It's just that the salesmen that peddle them try to make it that way. With a little careful planning, a regular joe can have a first class screening room in his home. I'm living proof of that.

[bigshot]

On this we will never agree. But hey, who cares, if you are watching opera!

If you ever get to Los Angeles, stop by for a visit. I might just be able to change your mind.

[DavidW]

Culture desn't exist in the brck and mortar buildings we build. It exists in the hearts and minds of the people. We can pursue culture by preserving antiquated venues and traditions, but it won't work. Real culture will just become more and more irrelevent to society as a whole. The way to keep culture alive is to bring it to the people in a venue they actually use.

But I think you have it backwards, I think that more people attend concerts than there are serious cd/lp collectors for classical music.  I meet more people at concerts that attend concerts but do not collect and listen to classical recordings than I do the kind that does both. 

I live near a town that has no dedicated cm sections in stores that sell cds, and yet have a full symphony orchestra and concert hall.

Classical music recordings generate so little revenue that the great recordings of the past several decades are being sold as bargain box sets.  And you think that recordings are the future?

Did you know that artists in every area of music are making their money more and more by concerts than they are by selling these antiquated things that we call albums?

[Mirror Image]

But I think you have it backwards, I think that more people attend concerts than there are serious cd/lp collectors for classical music.  I meet more people at concerts that attend concerts but do not collect and listen to classical recordings than I do the kind that does both. 

I live near a town that has no dedicated cm sections in stores that sell cds, and yet have a full symphony orchestra and concert hall.

Classical music recordings generate so little revenue that the great recordings of the past several decades are being sold as bargain box sets.  And you think that recordings are the future?

Did you know that artists in every area of music are making their money more and more by concerts than they are by selling these antiquated things that we call albums?

Sad, but oh so true. This is one of the things I was discussing with another guy the other day at a used CD store I frequent. Classical music, for the past 30 years or so, has been very much specialized area, especially in record stores. As the years pass, these spaces have become smaller and smaller, because, and not to be insulting, but our society is dumb when it comes to the arts. The gentleman I was speaking with was 81 years old and only has about four or five friends that are actually into classical music and this is in Atlanta --- a very large city by Southern standards. There aren't many us left unfortunately.

[DavidRoss]

Heck yes Bigshot blu-rays are awesome! 

Yep. And even modest home theaters today can offer a remarkably good viewing experience for less than the cost of a pair of season tickets to the Met.

[bigshot]

I live near a town that has no dedicated cm sections in stores that sell cds, and yet have a full symphony orchestra and concert hall.

That's because everyone buys music online now. I can guarantee you that the difference between the number of people who attend live concerts in your town and the number of people who listen to classical music on the radio, on iPods or on CDs is a difference of an order of magnitude.

Did you know that Amazon sells a ton of classical music as MP3 downloads? Classical music is making money for them.

I think that in general, classical music and opera fans are older and not as acquainted with the way technology has affected the music business. It's one thing to read about iPods and blurays in the newspapers, and quite another thing to actually use new tech. The upcoming generation gets it though. They are reinventing things, and like it or not, we older folks are going to have to get with the program, or fade away as opera companies and symphony associations file for bankrupcy one after another. The Met is making the first step toward a virtual opera company. They won't be the last. If classical music wants to remain relevent, it will have to reinvent the concept of performance.

And for classical music fans, we will reinvent the concept of a collection. Instead of bound volumes of Victor Red Seal 78s, stacks of LPs, or shelves full of CDs, we'll have digital libraries of videos in surround sound, media servers full of digital files, and subscriptions to all you can eat streaming servers packed with deep catalog.

Instead of album covers, fancy dress concerts and shelves full of fetish objects, the focus will be on the music where it belongs.