Who is "greater," Bach or Beethoven?

[Opus106]

Sorry, what's the problem with these? I love listening to them. 

I have generally found (in Internet forums) that they (at least Wellington's Victory) are to Beethoven, what the Canon in D is to Pachelbel, "The Four Seasons" is to Vivaldi, and what Dittersdorf is... well, to himself. They are simply too popular to be "great" or not profound enough.

[(poco) Sforzando]

In his voluminous output, much larger than Beethoven's, Bach did not write any duds even in his smallest works  This is in contrast to the sometimes uneven quality of Beethoven piano sonatas, not to mention the monstrous Choral Fantasie and Wellington's Victory.  Bach's absolute mastery of counterpoint is undisputed, that places him in a higher class than those who wrote mainly homophonic tonal harmony, which he already excelled in.  His peers can only be the likes of a Shakespeare or Michelangelo.

ZB

Lots of arguable assertions there. Bach does have his share of duds in my opinion, and Shakespeare has his Titus Andronicus and Timon of Athens. Counterpoint is not ipso facto superior to other textures, Beethoven was a superb contrapuntist himself, and it does not matter that Beethoven wrote Wellington's Victory when the real point is that he wrote the Op. 131 quartet (including its fugue).

[Florestan]

I have generally found (in Internet forums) that they (at least Wellington's Victory) are to Beethoven, what the Canon in D is to Pachelbel, "The Four Seasons" is to Vivaldi, and what Dittersdorf is... well, to himself. They are simply too popular to be "great" or not profound enough.

"Greatness" and "profundity" are overrated IMO.

[Antoine Marchand]

"Greatness" and "profundity" are overrated...

... or, at least, badly defined. 

[Scarpia]

Lots of arguable assertions there.

if "arguable assertions" is a euphemism for "nonsense" I concur.   

[Florestan]

... or, at least, badly defined. 

I agree that's a more accurate way to put it. One can be "great" in lightness (as the Strauss family) or "profound" in frivolity (as Rossini).

[Opus106]

One can be "great" in lightness (as the Strauss family) or "profound" in frivolity (as Rossini).

You see the glass half full, whereas those who look for True Greatness will find those waltzes to be light in greatness.

[Florestan]

You see the glass half full, whereas those who look for True Greatness will find those waltzes to be light in greatness.

Nice pun! Still... it was not enough to have a badly defined "greatness" --- now we have a badly defined "true greatness" as well... 

[Opus106]

Still... it was not enough to have a badly defined "greatness" --- now we have a badly defined "true greatness" as well... 

I actually meant the badly defined one. Just gave it a nice, polished name.

[(poco) Sforzando]

"Greatness" and "profundity" are overrated IMO.

Thanks, but I'll continue to overrate them.

[(poco) Sforzando]

if "arguable assertions" is a euphemism for "nonsense" I concur.   

I was being polite.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Since the comma-free version of this thread has been locked, I was pointing out that Greg, being an American, was following established American punctuation, which (though neither logical nor consistent) is the way we do things here. Videlicet:

"Closing quotation marks go inside commas," and "periods."
"Closing quotation marks go outside semicolons"; as well as "colons":
"Closing quotation marks go inside exclamation points when the whole sentence functions as an exclamation!"
Closing quotation marks go outside exclamation points when "only a part of the sentence functions as an exclamation"!
"Do exclamation point rules apply also to questions?" Yes.

[Sid]

Again, absolutely no contest .. no one can compare to Bach in music, despite the result of any stupid poll here. Period. If you don't realize that, than you don't know much. And even though Brahms to some degree built on the formal innovations of Beethoven, he was far better!! (more well-rounded musically and minus any of the daft attention seeking melodrama that LvB loved to wallow in)

I absolutely loathe these kind of elitist and negative opinions. If you love J.S. Bach & think he was the greatest composer on earth, then simply tell us why you are so passionate about him. These kind of rubbish put-downs just turn me right off, and do no service to properly advocating any composer's music (elevating one and putting down others - a primitive way of doing things, imo). Ok, rant over...

[(poco) Sforzando]

I absolutely loathe these kind of elitist and negative opinions. If you love J.S. Bach & think he was the greatest composer on earth, then simply tell us why you are so passionate about him. These kind of rubbish put-downs just turn me right off, and do no service to properly advocating any composer's music (elevating one and putting down others - a primitive way of doing things, imo). Ok, rant over...

Yeah, I'm trying to find all this "daft attention seeking melodrama that LvB loved to wallow in." Where, please? The 7th and 8th symphonies? the Grosse Fugue? the variations from the op. 127 and 131 quartets? the Missa?

[Sid]

Yeah, & I love how James was preaching down to us, but at the same time couldn't properly spell a word in the sentence I put in bold above. Maybe I'm being pedantic but his negativity and snobbism is what gives us classical fans a bad name in some places, so it kind of really winds me up to no end...

[DavidRoss]

I love the "3 Bs"--Bach, Beethoven, and Banana!

http://www.youtube.com/v/361DwXNvxKg&feature=related

[greg]

Yeah, & I love how James was preaching down to us, but at the same time couldn't properly spell a word in the sentence I put in bold above. Maybe I'm being pedantic but his negativity and snobbism is what gives us classical fans a bad name in some places, so it kind of really winds me up to no end...

I don't think James has a definition of what "greatness" is. At least JDP tries- once he said "Bach is the greatest composer because he combines the highest complexity with the highest interest." That's actually a pretty decent attempt, except for the fact that interest is subjective.

"Greatness" is probably a term that shouldn't be used. There is:
1. Popularity (how much a composer and their music is liked)
2. Skill/Craftsmanship

I think most of us add up these two qualities, whether intentional or not, to define "greatness," such as in polls like these (ten greatest vs. ten favorites). But adding two unlike things just produces something bizarre. It's like adding up a real number and an imaginary number to produce a complex number.

[Antoine Marchand]

Since the comma-free version of this thread has been locked, I was pointing out that Greg, being an American, was following established American punctuation, which (though neither logical nor consistent) is the way we do things here. Videlicet:

"Closing quotation marks go inside commas," and "periods."
"Closing quotation marks go outside semicolons"; as well as "colons":
"Closing quotation marks go inside exclamation points when the whole sentence functions as an exclamation!"
Closing quotation marks go outside exclamation points when "only a part of the sentence functions as an exclamation"!
"Do exclamation point rules apply also to questions?" Yes.

BTW, if the paragraph ends with a quote with suspension points (as when  the quotation is incomplete), I guess the period is not put inside the quotation marks.

Example:

John said: "This rule is completely illogical...". 

[RJR]

+1.

Actually, I prefer the Choral Fantasie to the last movement of the Ninth by a wide margin. 

We could say anything we want, no doubt. The truth, though, is that Bach was a devout Lutheran, while Beethoven was an unconventionally-devout-bordering-on-deism-and-pantheism* Catholic.


* yet these "heresies" did not hinder him receiving the Last Rites, nor the Church burying him in consecrated ground with a Requiem Mass.

Not sure that I would call Beethoven a Catholic. He believed in a Creator, but I can't recall him ever referring to Jesus Christ or the Roman Catholic Church.

[Chaszz]

One can forget about morality occasionally, but one should not slap it in the face --- Arthur Schopenhauer

Or knock one's landlady down the stairs.