Meltdown II: Cognitive Dissonance in 2011

[Scarpia]

Looks like a great place to be anonymous and hide.

There is a definite aesthetic loss due to the lack of variety, older neighborhoods have the charm of different buildings constructed at different times by different people with the associated richness.  I live in a place where there is a similar uniformity of design, although the houses were build in 1951.  By now the different buildings are accumulating slight variations, but still not nearly as charming as the more heterogeneousness areas.

[DavidRoss]

David, please feel free to quote extensively from my posts in order to specify which "class of people" I attacked.

I was speaking in general terms of principles applicable to almost any topic.  But in this case you are clearly attacking those who design, build, and inhabit American cities--namely, Americans--and comparing them unfavorably (and unfairly) with their counterparts in Europe.  See, for instance, http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18052.msg495096.html#msg495096

[Florestan]

I was speaking in general terms of principles applicable to almost any topic.  But in this case you are clearly attacking those who design, build, and inhabit American cities--namely, Americans--and comparing them unfavorably (and unfairly) with their counterparts in Europe.  See, for instance, http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18052.msg495096.html#msg495096

This is an extrapolation which I reject. Yes, I might have issues with designers and developers --- but where did I attack Americans per se?

[Scarpia]

David, please feel free to quote extensively from my posts in order to specify which "class of people" I attacked.

Well, from the vistas displayed on your little computer screen you figured out that San Francisco and Dallas are actually indistinguishable, and that we crass Americans want nothing more than to lock ourselves in little Styrofoam boxes we call our houses, glued to the television screen watching the lates exploits of Brandolina with potato-chip crumbs running down our shirts, that's when we're not imprisoned in our SUVs sitting in grid-locked traffic jams for upwards of six hours a day.  But your poet's soul requires starry skies and the gentle breezes wafting through centuries-old birch forests as peasants toil in the distance to reach these insights.   

[Florestan]

Well, from the vistas displayed on your little computer screen you figured out that San Francisco and Dallas are actually indistinguishable, and that we crass Americans want nothing more than to lock ourselves in little Styrofoam boxes we call our houses, glued to the television screen watching the lates exploits of Brandolina with potato-chip crumbs running down our shirts, that's when we're not imprisoned in our SUVs sitting in grid-locked traffic jams for upwards of six hours a day.  But your poet's soul requires starry skies and the gentle breezes wafting through centuries-old birch forests as peasants toil in the distance to reach these insights.   

Putting words in my mouth and beating strawmen seems to be your favorite pastime.

[DavidRoss]

This is an extrapolation which I reject. Yes, I might have issues with designers and developers --- but where did I attack Americans per se?

Apparently you are as willfully blind about this as about your prejudices regarding American cities, housing, sidewalks, etc.  Virtually every one of your posts on this topic attacks Americans as crass, stupid, or insane. 

[Florestan]

Virtually every one of your posts on this topic attacks Americans as crass, stupid, or insane.

David, you know better than that, really.

Anyway, given such high levels of misunderstanding it's pretty clear that I'd better stop here, before hurting more "American" sensibilities and coming off as a sort of Bin Laden.

Over and out.

[MishaK]

Putting words in my mouth and beating strawmen seems to be your favorite pastime.

You're the one who's beating up straw men, since you evidently haven't spent *any* time in the cities you feel free to critique.

Firstly, re: the idiocy of single use zoning and what makes a successful city with high quality of life, please get a copy of this and read it:



Secondly:

I have it from an absolute trustworthy source that it could take three hours to get home from work in San Francisco.

That is complete nonsense. Unless you are complete retard incapable of properly planning your life, there is no reason why this should ever be the case. Yes, public transport can be spotty in some areas and real estate is very expensive in the more desirable locations, but the BART is teriffic and gets you around the entire Bay Area in very little time. I once had a layover at SFO and went into the city by BART in 15 minutes from SFO to grab lunch at a favorite restaurant, hopped back on the BART, was back at SFO in 15 minutes again and on my connecting flight. I have several friends in San Franciso who don't own cars. San Francisco is one of the most liveable cities in the US. In my book, it is also one of the most beautiful large cities in the world, alongside Cape Town and Seattle. The problem that causes some sprawl and long commutes for *some* inhabitants is their inability to cope with San Francisco weather. The city itself is very foggy and most of the time some ten degrees colder than neighboring areas. This is too much for some wimpy souls, who prefer constant Californian sunshine and choose to bake in some soulless suburb on the other side of the bay. Their problem, if you ask me.

and frankly I don't see any difference between that and

NYC:

Again, apples and oranges. I lived in Manhattan for five years and in Brooklyn for one. My wife was born in Queens and grew up on the other side of the river in New Jersey. There is not a single large urban area I know where you have so much culture and culinary delights in so small a space, all quickly reachable by public transport. Yes, it is dense, it is loud, and the real estate is extremely expensive. But if you live here in the first place, it's likely that you are being paid more than you would get for the same work elsewhere anyway. I have nowhere had a larger circle of friends and nowhere was it easier to spontaneously meet up and do stuff together than in NY. When I first moved to NY, I too hated the noise, the rudeness of the people, etc. But I quickly grew to love its convenience and inexhaustible offerings. There is simply no other place on earth like it. Not even Paris or London. In its density and cosmopolitanism it is exactly the most un-American of all large American cities. It is mixed use almost everywhere, with apartments on top of stores, intermingled with office buildings. Travel distances are short.

Los Angeles:

LA is a total disaster. It is not a city at all, but an agglomeration of suburban sprawl with a completely characterless, antiseptic central business district. Its only saving graces are the beach towns and a few immigrant neighborhoods that have some character. The rest is the result of a disastrous dismantling of one of the finest tram systems in the world at the hands of the big three car companies, who wanted to sell more cars. Accordingly, you now have to drive everywhere and nothing is ever close by. (When my LA friends say "Oh, let's go to x, it's really close", a 40-minute car ride follows!) I wouldn't live there for any money in the world. But that is because it doesn't meet my definition for "city" or "urbanism", and I hate the lack of seasons.

Chicago:

When seeing Bucharest, Mensch perceptively noticed the "hideous realist socialist architecture". IMO, the pictures above show its "capitalist" counterpart, equally hideous.

Now, here you simply don't know what you're talking about. You can't assess a city's architectural heritage by looking at a distant shot of the skyline. Chicago has some of the most original, rich, vibrant and diverse architecture of any city in the world. And I don't just mean the office towers downtown. Even its suburbs are full of architectural gems. Within a six block radius of my home alone, there are probably a dozen Frank Lloyd Wright houses, or houses built in his style by his students. Unlike most American cities, in the case of Chicago there was at least some semblance of urban planning, which resulted in a gorgeous lakefront with parks, bike lanes and other recreational offerings. The one reason I loved Chicago whan I was in college and why I came back to live here (apart from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, of course  ) was the lakefront which has such a calming, restorative effect. Unlike NY, Chicago is clean, spacious and not as loud. The public transport is adequate for most purposes during the week, but sketchy on weekends. The urban spaces along the lake are great, but further west, it's back to typical American suburban sprawl. The problem is that the land is flat and cheap and abundant, so people who want more space move further out for less money and pay in return with long commutes in horrible traffic. But again, that's a choice. I have a number of friends who commute by bike.

Now a lovely US city where I wouldn't mind living is Burlington, Vermont

I'm sure it's lovely... if you are a university professor or work in the health care industry. There isn't much else to do around there.

[DavidRoss]

I have it from an absolute trustworthy source that it could take three hours to get home from work in San Francisco.

Your source is not very trustworthy.  If you live three hours away, yes--but within the city itself, or even in the Bay Area--no.  I've lived there, and on the peninsula, and across the bay.  I used to commute from Berkeley, through San Francisco, to Palo Alto.  At rush hour it took at most 1½ hours by car.  Now I live about 80 miles (125 km) north of San Francisco.  Normally it takes about 1¼ hours to drive there.  Even at rush hour, traveling through the East Bay and across the Bay Bridge, it takes only (only!) about an hour longer.

San Francisco is unique among American cities, as different from L.A. or Dallas or New York as from London or Paris or Amsterdam.  And, yes, I know them all.  Are there things I don't like about it?  You bet!  Are there things I love about it?  You bet!  Would I live there now?  Maybe, under the right circumstances ... but I'm really a country boy at heart who prefers living in a small town or a university town. 

Here's another photo of The City from a different perspective, looking toward Coit Tower from Chinatown:


And if you are really interested in getting a better idea of what it looks like, and maybe even a bit of a feel for it, check out the neighborhood pics at http://www.sanfranciscodays.com/

Edit:  I see that Mensch has already contributed a thoughtful post describing his experience with several of the cities you mentioned. 

[Gurn Blanston]

When I lived off Geary Blvd in the late '70's, and worked in San Bruno, it frequently took 3 hours to get up the 101 and through the City. Public transportation may well have improved since then, I would hope so (problem was getting close to my destination in San Bruno) but that only means they have been working on it all along, which is wonderful. I don't lay claim to being a total moron, maybe just a partial one...



PS - Burlington Vermont is a wonderful place to be from. I lived there for 26 years. There may well be places to earn a nice living there, but I couldn't find them. I wasn't a mechanical engineer though. 

[DavidRoss]

PS - Burlington Vermont is a wonderful place to be from. I lived there for 26 years. There may well be places to earn a nice living there, but I couldn't find them. I wasn't a mechanical engineer though. 

When I browse those "Great places to live/retire" books, Burlington always seems like a great place--maybe Andy will chime in!

[Gurn Blanston]

When I browse those "Great places to live/retire" books, Burlington always seems like a great place--maybe Andy will chime in!

The weather would now be intolerable to me. When family members complain about it, I just laugh and walk away. Half the year is Arctic...    It's beautiful though; I always felt that if I was independently wealthy I might go home again (if one truly can). Looks like only a slim chance of that, though.

[Scarpia]

When I lived off Geary Blvd in the late '70's, and worked in San Bruno, it frequently took 3 hours to get up the 101 and through the City. Public transportation may well have improved since then, I would hope so (problem was getting close to my destination in San Bruno) but that only means they have been working on it all along, which is wonderful. I don't lay claim to being a total moron, maybe just a partial one...

There was no Caltrain back then?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Apparently you are as willfully blind about this as about your prejudices regarding American cities, housing, sidewalks, etc.  Virtually every one of your posts on this topic attacks Americans as crass, stupid, or insane.

Well I'm an American (living abroad though) and I'm not getting that at all. I do think some aspects of US urban planning, architecture etc. are crass and stupid. I may be going waaaaaaay out on a limb here, but I think Eusebistan agrees with me on that.

However, his factual knowledge of American urban life was lacking. I thank Mensch for his fine post on that subject, and second his rec of Jacobs' book.

[DavidRoss]

The weather would now be intolerable to me. When family members complain about it, I just laugh and walk away. Half the year is Arctic...    It's beautiful though; I always felt that if I was independently wealthy I might go home again (if one truly can). Looks like only a slim chance of that, though.

And were I wealthy by US standards, I'd probably stay right where I am...but we'd lease a little pied-à-terre in The City near the civic center! 

[DavidRoss]

I do think some aspects of US urban planning, architecture etc. are crass and stupid.

No one would argue with that, nor with the claim that some aspects of European urban planning, architecture, etc. are crass and stupid ... nor with claiming that the quality of life is different for the rich than for the poor, whether in San Francisco, Paris, or Bucharest. 

[MishaK]

No one would argue with that, nor with the claim that some aspects of European urban planning, architecture, etc. are crass and stupid ... nor with claiming that the quality of life is different for the rich than for the poor, whether in San Francisco, Paris, or Bucharest.

Word! For every American Sunbelt horror suburb, there is a European Sarcelles.

[Scarpia]

Word! For every American Sunbelt horror suburb, there is a European Sarcelles.

And, oddly enough, some people like the Sunbelt horror suburbs.   

I lived in San Diego for a while in a place near UCSD that was called "condo-hell," street after street of rather generic-looking complexes of 3 to 5 story wood frame buildings.  Transportation could be a problem (no public transit to speak of and the highway often jammed) but food, restaurants, retail was generally within walking distance (although no on seemed to walk anywhere).  "Livable" communities in the US are rarely literally walkable, but very often what is needed is accessible by a short local drive.  In San Diego walkability was often compromised by there being an inconveniently located canyon.

[Bulldog]

I've lived in a number of places in the U.S. and have visited many different European locations.  I have enjoyed all of them.  The most important factor is that I take myself wherever I go; my nature is to reap the rewards of every location, not grouse about the negatives that each possesses.

[MishaK]

I lived in San Diego for a while in a place near UCSD that was called "condo-hell," street after street of rather generic-looking complexes of 3 to 5 story wood frame buildings.  Transportation could be a problem (no public transit to speak of and the highway often jammed) but food, restaurants, retail was generally within walking distance (although no on seemed to walk anywhere).  "Livable" communities in the US are rarely literally walkable, but very often what is needed is accessible by a short local drive.  In San Diego walkability was often compromised by there being an inconveniently located canyon.

Yes, I've spent a lot of time in San Diego. I have a cousin who used to live there, whom I used to regularly visit, and since four years ago, my sister-in-law has been living there, so I still go regularly. There are a few very liveable pockets, espcially along the coast, where one can take care of daily needs within walking distance. And the downtown area has improved vastly over the last two decades. There is an actual urban life now, with restaurants, small shops and attractive apartment buildings downtown, that can enable a lifestyle with short commuting distances on foot, bike, or public trasnport. That was unheard of in Southern California not too long ago. But most of it still involves driving ridiculous distances along, through, over, and past the canyons you mention.