Jewish American Composers

Started by Mirror Image, March 02, 2011, 01:42:24 PM

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Mirror Image










First row from left to right: Leonard Bernstein, Lukas Foss
Second row: Frederick Jacobi, Joseph Achron
Third row: Ernest Bloch, David Diamond
Fourth row: William Schuman, Hugo Weisgall

I figured this thread will be a good way to discuss the music of Jewish American composers. Please share your thoughts about your own experiences with this truly eclectic group of composers.

DavidRoss

#1
Don't forget
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or

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and

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"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Mirror Image

Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 02, 2011, 05:15:15 PM
Don't forget
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or

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and



Of course not! I could never forgot these composers. I just wanted to showcase more of the Jewish composers that don't get talked about much like Achron, Foss, or Jacobi.

Josquin des Prez

#3
A more interesting question would be non-Jewish American composers (besides Blacks of course). Are there even any? Seems like Americans continued that fine Anglo-Saxon tradition of sucking at music (and the Jewish ones aren't that great to begin with, now that i think of it). Without Africans America would be as musically barren as Britain was for centuries.

Josquin des Prez

#4
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 06:46:45 PM
I just wanted to showcase more of the Jewish composers that don't get talked about

Yet, you didn't even bother mentioning their names.


Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 03, 2011, 01:09:38 AM
A more interesting question would be non-Jewish American composers (besides Blacks of course). Are there even any?

Now there's a dumb question.

By the way, the "Anglo-Saxon tradition of sucking at music" is a Romantic-era perspective. In the 16th and 17th centuries, England was one of the major hotspots of European art music, producing major composers like Byrd, Tallis, Dowland, Gibbons, and Purcell.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

DavidRoss

Quote from: toucan on March 03, 2011, 07:10:07 AM
Is there something distinctively jewish about jewish-American composers? Something distinctive about their music that would characterize it as jewish? No.
(Is there something distinctively American about the music of American composers that would mark it off as America, distinguish it from European music?) Yes...but not all American composers.

But [Milhaud] does not appear to have taken up American citizenship. Would that have made him an American anyways? Are Varese and Marcel Duchamp Americans? Really?
We've touched on this topic before.  My perspective, FWIW, is that those who either took American citizenship or established permanent residence for the remainder of their lives are quintessentially American.  We are a nation of immigrants, a nation bound together not by genetic heritage and the accident of birth but rather by choice and our commitment to shared fundamental values.  That is not to say, however, that the music of a composers like Stravinsky or Rachmaninoff is characteristically "American."
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

springrite

Quote from: noeL on March 03, 2011, 07:36:12 AM

I suppose one could make the argument that because all Jews share a certain response to the world because of collective persecution over the centuries, it may subconsciously influence their expression of music and other arts - but that would be pretty subtle.  And I don't find a composer like Aaron Copland representing "Jewish-music", he sounds very non-Jewish, actually, with works like Appalachian Spring, Rodeo, Billy the Kid, and the bulk of his music, at least the music he is most known for.

Good point. Being not Jewish but having so many Jewish friends and knowing quite a bit about the culture, I find Bloch's music to be the most Jewish-sounding. Some of Lenny's music as well.
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Mirror Image


Mirror Image

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 03, 2011, 01:09:38 AM
A more interesting question would be non-Jewish American composers (besides Blacks of course). Are there even any? Seems like Americans continued that fine Anglo-Saxon tradition of sucking at music (and the Jewish ones aren't that great to begin with, now that i think of it). Without Africans America would be as musically barren as Britain was for centuries.

You're a very ignorant person. You NEVER have anything positive to add to a discussion and your game of trying to pick an argument with someone is just tiring.


Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: toucan on March 03, 2011, 07:10:07 AM
Is there something distinctively jewish about jewish-American composers? Something distinctive about their music that would characterize it as jewish?

Yes, sometimes.

Quote(Is there something distinctively American about the music of American composers that would mark it off as America, distinguish it from European music?)

Yes, sometimes.

QuotePaul Bowles

Is Bowles at all noteworthy as a composer? I know him only as a writer.

QuoteAre Varese and Marcel Duchamp Americans? Really?

Dunno about Duchamp, but I would definitely consider Varese an American composer, based on 1. length of residence and US citizenship; 2. the fact that almost his entire oeuvre was composed in the US; and 3. the fact that so much of his inspiration is connected with America and the type of industrial civilization he found there. But who says he can't be both French and American? Like a lot of composers, he's a hybrid of nationalities.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

vandermolen

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 03, 2011, 01:09:38 AM
(and the Jewish ones aren't that great to begin with, now that i think of it).

Don't agree as I think that Copland (Symphony No 3), Diamond (Symphony No 3) and William Schuman (Symphony 3 and 6) are very fine composers. Also I rate Bernstein's 'Jeremiah' very highly and much of Bloch (SQ No 1 for example).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Josquin des Prez

Quote from: vandermolen on March 04, 2011, 04:57:46 AM
Don't agree as I think that Copland (Symphony No 3), Diamond (Symphony No 3) and William Schuman (Symphony 3 and 6) are very fine composers. Also I rate Bernstein's 'Jeremiah' very highly and much of Bloch (SQ No 1 for example).

But they are still not as good as their European counterparts, including the Jewish ones. Something very odd about American culture when it comes to certain art forms.

Mirror Image

#13
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 04, 2011, 09:39:14 AM
But they are still not as good as their European counterparts, including the Jewish ones. Something very odd about American culture when it comes to certain art forms.

The only thing odd is with your ears. You clearly have no idea what you're even talking about and it shows. American music at its best owes nothing to European models and everything to the spontaneity of its own art.

Mirror Image

Quote from: noeL on March 03, 2011, 03:56:10 AM
Darius Milhaud, whom I'm listening to right now.



Milhaud is one of my favorite composers. His music is so beautiful. Some people can't stomach all of the polytonal aspects of his music, but I think he used this compositional technique to brilliant effect and, in fact, made this concept incredibly accessible to the listener. Most people don't understand his art, which, in most cases, is so full of joyfulness and has a very positive outlook, but serious listeners will find the more they dig into his massive output, the more they find some depth and beauty like, for example, the slow movements in his Symphony No. 6 or the tender moments in the Sacred Service. His neglect in my opinion is shameful.

The new erato

You forget guys like George Gershwin (Jacob Gershovitz), Irving Berlin (Izrail Bejlin) and Jerome Kern (born in New York to Jewish parents) - people of a musical genius fully up to the rest of the other names mentioned here.

Josquin des Prez

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 04, 2011, 06:28:08 PM
The only thing odd is with your ears. You clearly have no idea what you're even talking about and it shows. American music at its best owes nothing to European models and everything to the spontaneity of its own art.

American music at its best is not as great as European music at its best. That's my argument.

Josquin des Prez

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 04, 2011, 07:36:28 PM
Some people can't stomach all of the polytonal aspects of his music

Nonsense. The problem with Milhaud is that his music is as inexpressive and artificial as it gets.

The new erato

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 05, 2011, 01:45:24 AM
Nonsense. The problem with Milhaud is that his music is as inexpressive and artificial as it gets.
Have you heard the 2nd violin concerto?

Though he certainly is an uneven composer from what I've heard, I find a statement like this about a composer having written nearly 500 opera wildly unbelievable - as I don't think you know more than a fraction of them.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 05, 2011, 01:43:34 AM
American music at its best is not as great as European music at its best. That's my argument.

Not much of an argument. Both arts are different. As I said, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.