Mystery pianists -- not bonehelm's thread

[orbital]

Although the current game isn't over I want to put these up because there are only a few days left to download them. They're two contrasting versions of Chopin's Ballade 1, one lean and forward-looking, the other more introverted and spacious. I'd be interested in opinions on them more than guessing the pianist.

http://download.yousendit.com/B70C744E4C62B11F

http://download.yousendit.com/603A6EA456975C45

Can you use another service Tony? These links will not allow for download (apparently you have exhausted your download limit)

[sidoze]

I'll end it. I don't want to drag those topics very long.

2 is Ives - 3 Page Sonata
4 is Messiaen's 1st etude de rhytme (that was a bit obscure perhaps, but the opening is not quite forgettable)

But I am surprised 3 is not discovered.

okay it was rather obvious that 4 wasn't the Scriabin 5, but I thought perhaps the pianist delayed hitting something for the effect you hear. Anyway I haven't even heard those works. 

Can you use another service Tony? These links will not allow for download (apparently you have exhausted your download limit)

sorry, will do.

[sidoze]

okay I've uploaded them to rapidshare for those who wish to hear the work

http://rapidshare.com/files/41600878/Track1.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/41600879/Track2.mp3

[orbital]

Alright, I will not try and make any guesses for the pianists involved, except that the first one (10:30 one) is a male pianist as can be heard from his constant grunting 

This is a piece I enjoy a lot, I often think that I can not think of a single movement piano work that I like more than op 23, and I listen to different versions whenever I can and I am always happy to hear unconventional recordings of the piece.

First things first: I'd prefer the first one (by first I mean the 10:30 one) by a very long margin for my own listening purposes. This is probably the first time I'm hearing a version this long and it was quite revelatory for me. I liked the sudden changes in the mood (played even to a deeper effect than the norm here), very clean chords throughout much of the piece (at times s/he cuts the chords very short but s/he uses it to a great effect), but more than anything else the Presto Con Fuoco section where the playing is crystal clear. I always had a problem with the part near the end where pianists cannot play with a certain rhythm, actually I have not heard any version that does not disappoint here, but this one gets pretty close. Then comes the upwards run followed by the downwards one which never ever fails to send shivers down my spine. And this one where the run is played slowed down to easily half the regular tempo and the sudden drop to piano is very remarkable. It just seems to be one of those inspired moments that I always look more for.

This performance is very expressive but without a shred of mannerism. The pianist conveys a very special mood that suits the music. Unlike Horowitz who plays this music expressively in his own way ruining the music in the process.

The second one by comparison has nothing extraordinary to offer to me. This one is full 2 minutes shorter than the other one. The music is well played throughout but without anything to be remembered by. I'd probably never choose this one to listen to by myself.  The detached way of approaching the music works in a lot of instances, but those that do generally have a unique way of coldness. Michelangeli for example, or even Francois. They are, in a way, expressive in their detachment. But this performer here is playing right through the music IMO.

I went one step further and decided to apply the test to someone who is not very familiar with the work -my wife  She knows the piece, but does not generally listen to it, and I doubt if she knows the subtleties either.
In order to do the test I thought we would first listen to a bipartisan version together. A version that is well played, more or less in line with the way it is written out. I chose Ashkenazy's Decca recording which I still enjoy a lot. We listened to that one first. I made her listen to the Presto/coda section twice to make sure that seh has a blueprint for the way the music generally goes and ends. Then we listened to the first one (the coda twice) and then the second one again with the coda repeated.
She liked the second one better, saying that she understood the music better, it was more compact and the main ideas were all there without the overwhelming effort she said was in the first version.

So my thoughts are: I prefer the first (introverted) one by a very long margin, but it probably would not be a good recording to introduce someone to the piece. If one got accustomed to the music by listening to this version, all mainstream versions would sound weird I guess.

I would be interested to know the pianist for the first clip. Can you PM me if you don't want to reveal it here?

[sidoze]

That was great Alain, thanks for writing about them.

Then comes the upwards run followed by the downwards one which never ever fails to send shivers down my spine. And this one where the run is played slowed down to easily half the regular tempo and the sudden drop to piano is very remarkable. It just seems to be one of those inspired moments that I always look more for.

This is my favourite moment from this recording, along with one that comes earlier when he plays slowly and quietly (much more so than any other recording I'm familiar with -- I don't have the timings right now). He creates a beautiful sense of mystery here. It's certainly a unique performance, played in a manner I haven't heard before. It's by Evgeny Zarafiants, a little known Russian pianist who has recorded 2 or 3 CDs for Naxos, but more importantly has made half a dozen or more for a Japanese label. This particular one includes all 4 Ballades and in my opinion this was the best of the lot. Other CDs I've heard include Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata--another personal performance--and one that includes Chopin's 3rd Sonata. I found the latter rather insensitive in spite of his spacious, introverted approach. He certainly has his own way of interpreting things--which is nothing but good--though for the most part it doesn't work for me. I will sell all 3 of these CDs on Ebay very soon so if you'd like any of them please just email me.

The second recording is by Gilels, recorded live in Budapest in 1963 (on Music & Arts). It's one of my favourite performances of the work, along with Francois. I've always thought that Ballade 1 should receive a strong, forward-looking performance, and should be distanced from too much introspection and any sort of sickliness which sometimes is associated with the composer (perhaps especially from later periods). It's a youthful work and I find that it sounds best when played youthfully (simple as). I certainly admire longer, more introverted interpretations such as the Zarafiants and Moravec; I just think they emphasise one side of Chopin to the detriment of the other. I can't agree with you that he's playing through the music, but it's certainly not as heated as the one by Francois.

I'm happy that the A / B comparison worked, as I purposefully used two entirely different approaches. Cheers

[orbital]

The second recording is by Gilels, recorded live in Budapest in 1963 (on Music & Arts). It's one of my favourite performances of the work, along with Francois. I've always thought that Ballade 1 should receive a strong, forward-looking performance, and should be distanced from too much introspection and any sort of sickliness which sometimes is associated with the composer (perhaps especially from later periods). It's a youthful work and I find that it sounds best when played youthfully (simple as). I certainly admire longer, more introverted interpretations such as the Zarafiants and Moravec; I just think they emphasise one side of Chopin to the detriment of the other. I can't agree with you that he's playing through the music, but it's certainly not as heated as the one by Francois.

Precisely the reason why I said I wouldn't play it as a preferred version. If I want it youthful there is Francois, and there is Barere, and Gavrilov and Zimmerman and even Cortot to choose from.
Looks like when it comes to Chopin Gilels hardly appeals to me (his preludes  )

Of course I agree that the sickly Chopin method is nothing more than a caricaturisation of his music, and I generally detest that. I don't think that's what we have here, or perhaps yes. One has to listen to other ballades too. I am making a casual decision on one piece alone. If he plays each piece the same way, than it would not be a moment of inspiration but a deliberate attempt to dramatize the music (which can easily turn me off). Therefore, I am only talking about the merits of one-on-one comparision.

Perhaps another point to consider in chosing the better version for me is to ask: Which version would I prefer to hear live? How would I feel hearing the first version as an encore to end an evening? (A:Wonderful  ). How about the second? (A: Eeh  )

[aquablob]

Precisely the reason why I said I wouldn't play it as a preferred version. If I want it youthful there is Francois, and there is Barere, and Gavrilov and Zimmerman and even Cortot to choose from.

Interesting... I never thought of Zimerman's performance as particularly "youthful," though I do enjoy it tremendously.

[sidoze]

Precisely the reason why I said I wouldn't play it as a preferred version. If I want it youthful there is Francois, and there is Barere, and Gavrilov and Zimmerman and even Cortot to choose from.

I don't think Zimerman is youthful. Francois certainly. Barere too, though I rarely play it. As for "playing right through the music", well, there's always Gavrilov

Looks like when it comes to Chopin Gilels hardly appeals to me (his preludes  )

I should mention that this is Gilels' only chopin recording which I really enjoy. His live second sonata is quite good too. Agree about the Preludes (and I waited years to hear them  ).

Of course I agree that the sickly Chopin method is nothing more than a caricaturisation of his music, and I generally detest that. I don't think that's what we have here, or perhaps yes.

I don't think so either. I mentioned sickliness only because I've heard it played in that contaminated way before.

You know, I'd much rather hear 1 on CD than live. I don't think I'd be able to fully appreciate it in a concert. So it's 2 for me again

[orbital]

I use Zimmerman being youthful in the context of "not being dramatic". I never thought he was [dramatic]

Actually, I can hardly differentiate between Zimmerman's, Gavrilov's and Periah's takes on the piece  I hear similar tones and shades for most part.

Here is another version from similar vein (to Gilels). I actually thought of this one when I first heard clip 2. (This one is actually even shorter).

It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0

[aquablob]

I use Zimmerman being youthful in the context of "not being dramatic". I never thought he was [dramatic]

Actually, I can hardly differentiate between Zimmerman's, Gavrilov's and Periah's takes on the piece  I hear similar tones and shades for most part.

Here is another version from similar vein (to Gilels). I actually thought of this one when I first heard clip 2. (This one is actually even shorter).

It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0

I have the Gulda Ballades already... they are pretty straight-forward in a way that didn't speak to me at first. But after about three or four listens they clicked, and I like them quite a bit now. They actually remind me somewhat of Richter's style with Chopin, only more "Germanic," for lack of a better word.

Gulda + Chopin = a strange brew... an acquired taste.

[orbital]

His is pretty good on its own merits, I agree. Definitely not a reading I refrain from. Strangely enough, it's his Bach (WTC) that I could not warm up to 

[aquablob]

His is pretty good on its own merits, I agree. Definitely not a reading I refrain from. Strangely enough, it's his Bach (WTC) that I could not warm up to 

Really? I was listening to some of Book 2 just a few hours ago -- I find his clear articulation irresistible! Though I do understand how some may not like his Bach. It is not, how should I put this... "warm."

[sidoze]

It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0

Thanks. I had those in the Philips GPOC series. Not my sort of thing. As for his WTC, well, the less said the better 


I've uploaded 3 recordings of the first movement of Rachmaninoff's Sonata 2. Sound ranges from excellent to bootleg. Why is this piece not more popular? When it's on the end of a great performance I think it's as good as any sonata around.

http://rapidshare.com/files/42924538/track1.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/42923021/track2.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/42926511/track3.mp3

[Drasko]

It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0

Thanks, haven't heard it before. There is one small passage in it that I quite liked (5'17-5'22)

[orbital]

Thanks, haven't heard it before. There is one small passage in it that I quite liked (5'17-5'22)

Really? It sounds as if he is actually skipping a few notes there 

[Drasko]

Really? It sounds as if he is actually skipping a few notes there 

Pedant Notes are expendable if I like the result

[sidoze]

come on you tossers, at least download the second track.

EDIT: I think you already know this one Alain. Ugh. Why is piano so unpopular on this board? Or is it just romantic piano? Or just me? 

[Drasko]

Why is piano so unpopular on this board? Or is it just romantic piano? Or just me? 

As always it's probably the mix of all the above but mostly you I'd say 

I told you before that you'll have something like two takers for those Chopin op.35 finalas, now I'm not particularly interested in this piece, orbital possibly off somewhere for the weekend, you do the math ...

[orbital]

come on you tossers, at least download the second track.

I am doing that right now! I downloaded the first track but then rapidshare wants you to wait for 30 minutes before downloading the next 

[Don]

Really? I was listening to some of Book 2 just a few hours ago -- I find his clear articulation irresistible! Though I do understand how some may not like his Bach. It is not, how should I put this... "warm."

I love Gulda's WTC, and warmth is not everything.  Speaking of Gulda, I have one of those Australian Eloquence discs containing three Schumann big hits.  Gulda plays the Fantasiestucke Op. 12, and it's a stunning performance.  He gives Florestan the brutal treatment, and nobody does it better.