Soprano Warbling

[knight66]

I'm a bit mystified by this. I like what I've heard of hers. Surely the intensity is compelling? It's by no means an ugly voice, often very beautiful I think. Haven't heard any bad top notes from hers in recordings either.

Interesting that the Met has its "queens" (the ones on stage, not in the audience, definitely also a major feature of that house! http://parterre.com/ ). Currently it's obviously Renée Fleming. Who was it before her?

I used to have the Barbirolli Butterfly and I had a recording with her as Desdemona. I did not 'get' the voice. While I was still trying to come to grips with it, I went to see a rare opera at the Edin Festival; Il Stranero...spelling? It was a very long time ago, but my abiding memory was of watching her stand at the front of the stage and sing long, long arias and I did not like the voice one bit, mainly due to the vibrato.

It is perhaps this mystery of literally hearing the same thing differently from ones neighbour.

Mike

[Scarpia]

I used to have the Barbirolli Butterfly and I had a recording with her as Desdemona. I did not 'get' the voice. While I was still trying to come to grips with it, I went to see a rare opera at the Edin Festival; Il Stranero...spelling? It was a very long time ago, but my abiding memory was of watching her stand at the front of the stage and sing long, long arias and I did not like the voice one bit, mainly due to the vibrato.

I could swear that when I complained of Scotto's vibrato I got told off in these parts.   

[Grazioso]

You might want to listen to more "early" music, where some of the singers seem to be less prone to reflexively employing a vibrato wide enough to drive a truck through. Pick a note, please, dear ladies 

Indiscriminate and over-wide vibrato seems to be almost an accepted norm in classical singing and playing. It works much better when employed for specific effect, imo.

[knight66]

I could swear that when I complained of Scotto's vibrato I got told off in these parts.   

Not by me. When did I last tell you off for anything?

Mike

[knight66]

Indiscriminate and over-wide vibrato seems to be almost an accepted norm in classical singing and playing. It works much better when employed for specific effect, imo.

I rather agree with that and in my opinion, it is caused by singers taking on heavy parts and pushing the voice. I heard Eva Marton in Elektra and Turandot. It was a real trial, yet these singers get engaged for such parts years in advance. Earlier in her career, she had a firm gleaming voice.

The orchestra may have to be surmounted, the house may be large, the temptation to provide the thrilling notes a la Nilsson is too much and the result is often: Dame Gwyneth Jones and her sisters inadvertently rewriting the parts like throat warblers on steroids.

Mike

[Scarpia]

Not by me. When did I last tell you off for anything?

I'm being over dramatic.  Not told off, so much as contradicted.  I criticized Scotto's excess vibrato and you denied she had any such problem.  See post 12 in this thread.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17752.msg478650/topicseen.html#msg478650

[knight66]

Yes, it is true, it was not a wobble, but I felt it was excessive vibrato. Something not to my taste as against being an outright fault, which I believe a wobble is.

I will have a dekko on Youtube.

Mike

[knight66]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L6OoQ37Ko4&feature=related

This I suspect is a prime time recording and very good. But I don't like the metallic tone as she goes up the scale and I think it spreads, but no wobble. The piece I heard her in is I think by Bellini. It certainly required lots of colouratura work and she simply wore my ears out with vibrant tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2AHbz2siHA&feature=related

Here is a whole other bag of bones. I think the tone is over vibrant and this is more what I recall. But it is still not a wobble. But really, it is as much about taste as anything.

Mike

[Wendell_E]

I went to see a rare opera at the Edin Festival; Il Stranero...spelling?

The piece I heard her in is I think by Bellini.

Sounds like Bellini's La straniera.  I've never heard it, but I know she sang it earlier in her career.

[Guido]

Yes the first video is more in line with what I was thinking of. I'm no Scotto maven, just was surprised to hear that she was found so objectionable. The second video is much less pleasant (and is the ridiculous overacting....)

[Grazioso]

I rather agree with that and in my opinion, it is caused by singers taking on heavy parts and pushing the voice. I heard Eva Marton in Elektra and Turandot. It was a real trial, yet these singers get engaged for such parts years in advance. Earlier in her career, she had a firm gleaming voice.

The orchestra may have to be surmounted, the house may be large, the temptation to provide the thrilling notes a la Nilsson is too much and the result is often: Dame Gwyneth Jones and her sisters inadvertently rewriting the parts like throat warblers on steroids.

Mike

I know some blame often gets laid on Wagner's doorstep, too, for writing parts that only one-in-a-million singers, like Nilsson or Flagstad, can pull off without injuring the audience's eardrums. I'm no singer of vocal coach, but that whole modern operatic method of vocal production (sort of like fluidly bellowing in key) strikes me as so unnatural that I'm amazed when singers do nail it.

(Interestingly, it's been adopted rather successfully by some rock singers, like Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden, who ironically have no need to project like that since they're amplified.)

[knight66]

Sounds like Bellini's La straniera.  I've never heard it, but I know she sang it earlier in her career.

Thank you, yes, the very one. I have not listened to it since and that is probably my problem rather than one in the music.

Mike

[Grazioso]

A case in point: I just watched Love Me Tonight, a 1932 Rodgers and Hart musical with Maurice Chevalier and Jeannette MacDonald. The latter's vibrato was so exaggerated, she sound like a canary being electrocuted. I couldn't make out half her lines, despite being sung in English Great movie, though, with some very funny lyrics and lines, classic tunes, and beautiful cinematography.

[Ten thumbs]

You might want to listen to more "early" music, where some of the singers seem to be less prone to reflexively employing a vibrato wide enough to drive a truck through. Pick a note, please, dear ladies 

Indiscriminate and over-wide vibrato seems to be almost an accepted norm in classical singing and playing. It works much better when employed for specific effect, imo.

I presume you're talking here of opera. I have many recording of sopranos singing lieder and there''s hardly a wobble to be heard, just beautiful clear notes.

[zamyrabyrd]

The only time I heard Scotto live would have been around 1972 and I have not deliberately listeded to her since. It was an entire evening of paintstripping.
Mike

No trace of vibrato in the Madame Butterfly recording (1966) with Scotto, Bergonzi and Barbirolli.

I don't know why only sopranos are being picked on for "warbling". Some recordings of "Stride la Vampa" done by tremulous mezzos sound more like "Stride the Vampire".

ZB

[mahler10th]

I presume you're talking here of opera. I have many recording of sopranos singing lieder and there''s hardly a wobble to be heard, just beautiful clear notes.

Great.  Who are they and what recordings are they?  Any examples?

[jochanaan]

...My point is, I would like to hear Sopranos with more of a crystal clear and direct timbre, a kind of sky blue clear Nordic sound, rather than flaunt the limitations and imperfections of their considerable throats.   

Try Lucia Popp.  Crystal-clear voice, minimal and perfectly controlled vibrato, not a wobble nor a warble in hearing. As I recall, Ileana Cotrubas in her prime had that kind of tight focus too.  Or if you want a completely vibrato-free voice, try early-music singer Emma Kirkby.

And my personal favorite singer, mezzo Dame Janet Baker, has (or had in her prime) a similarly well-controlled vibrato which she could easily reduce to nothing when the music called for it.

[knight66]

No trace of vibrato in the Madame Butterfly recording (1966) with Scotto, Bergonzi and Barbirolli.

ZB

I never suggested there was; but I got rid of it becuase I don't connect with her at all. In Butterfly, I am happy with de los Angeles, that well known Mezzo, Gheorghiu and Callas.

Mike

[Ten thumbs]

Great.  Who are they and what recordings are they?  Any examples?

I looked at your post and thought I'd check. What you hear from memory is not necessarily how it sounds. I find that all good singers (bass, tenor, contralto and soprano) have  a certain amount of vibrato. To sing without would be unmusical - a bit like speaking in a dead-pan emotionless voice. However, I stand by no wobble and also each note is hit cleanly. I don't know if that meets your requirements but if you want some samples and would like to hear some great music that you may not know, try Heike Hallaschka singing Josephine Lang or Valérie Gabail singing Bonis' 3 Chansons de Shakespeare (opus 91).

[Guido]

No trace of vibrato in the Madame Butterfly recording (1966) with Scotto, Bergonzi and Barbirolli.

No vibrato?

This thread is beyond bizarre.