GMG Consensus: Who was the greatest composer of the 20th century?

[jochanaan]

Of course, the point is that some of us understand instead that Cage is of great consequence if you look at the output.

Grazioso's post is notably insightful.

My quick back-of-the-envelope input (none of it especially 'new news' — all points I or we have raised repeatedly in the past):

1. Given the slipperiness of defining greatness, the theatre of this discussion is not so much a theatre as a swamp.

2. Trying to settle on a core characteristic of 20^th-c. music is another exercise in nailing Jell-o to the wall;  the temptation to try to do so is part anachronism, part laziness . . . fact is that from the High Baroque (at least) Western music is too rich, interesting and (to use an adjective which will give some here the fantods) diverse, for it to be of much value to settle on iconic musical characteristics for an entire century.

3. That point above is related to Grazioso's query about narrative:  the rich diversity of Western music exploded exponentially in the 20^th century;  so much (and so many different muchnesses) went on, that a list of genuinely important, influential composers cannot be told on one hand.  Even to insist on keeping it to two hands, seems rather Procrustean.

Now I see how you earned that Ph. D.!

James, you say you read all our posts, but you give little evidence of having taken thought about them.  That's why some of us are losing patience.

[jochanaan]

Instead of focusing & commenting on me and what i do and think here, just perhaps offer something of your own.

Like I said--little evidence.

[Florestan]

something of your own.

Here is something of my own:

1. "GMG consensus" is a nonsense, as Mensch stated. Put together two random GMG-ers: you'll get a probable agreement here and there, but a general consensus is impossible.

2. Unless you --- and I mean you, James --- provide an undisputed and generally agreed upon definition of "greatness" and "20th century composer"(which according to (1) is in itself impossible), all discussion is an exercise in futility.

3. You already have your own list --- and each and every post that is not in line with it gets from you only blah-blah-ish scorn. You have never answered any specifical question that's been addressed to you.

4. You are a troll.

[karlhenning]

. . . (at least until I leave for Europe next week) . . . .

When? Not especially nearby, but a duo is playing a piece of mine twice in Washington next week . . . on the 30^th and 31^st.

[jowcol]

In midst of this raging tempest, I am still struggling whether to pick Yanni or John Tesh.  Can we pick two greatest composers?

[karlhenning]

Heck, some days I feel as if Monk were the greatest composer of the 20^th century.

[some guy]

When? Not especially nearby, but a duo is playing a piece of mine twice in Washington next week . . . on the 30^th and 31^st.

Damn! And I am going to New York first, too, but I don't get in until the morning of 1 April (6:06--GROSS!!).

Maybe next time.... (I gotta stop saying that. I really do.)

[karlhenning]

Well, in fairness, I've got to get more people performing my music, in more places, and oftener ; )

[Florestan]

Well, in fairness, I've got to get more people performing my music, in more places, and oftener ; )

Now, Karl! You're getting yourself --- and your art --- too seriously... 

[karlhenning]

Well, I only mean it for a courtesy to others, Andrei! ; )

[Florestan]

Well, I only mean it for a courtesy to others, Andrei! ; )

[Florestan]

I've already given some loose criteria on that .. go back a few pgs.

Based on those loose criteria, here are three composers I would like to know your assessment about:

1. Rachmaninoff

2. Shostakovich

3. Henning

TIA.

[petrarch]

4. You are a troll.

Clearly; is there any other way to interpret the bait that is the first post in this thread? (hint: keyword is entertainment, not serious discussion. And mild entertainment at that).

[Sid]

I've made a list of composer/s members named "the greatest of the c20th" on this thread, for what it's worth. I'm not sure there is "consensus" but there sure is a healthy diversity of opinion here...

Paul SC – Carter

Philocletes – Part

Westknife – Shostakovich

Greg – Prokofiev

RexRichter, Mirror Image – Didn't single out one or a few composers, named many

Jachanann – Schoenberg, Varese, Messiaen

Sid – Piazzolla

Some guy – Cage

Brian – Shostakovich

Val – Debussy, Stravinsky, Bartok

John of Glasgow – Stravinsky

Il Conte Rodolfo – Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich

Mc ukrneal – Cage, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, but also named others

JDP – Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky

Leon – Cage, Schoenberg

James – Stravinsky, Bartok, Debussy, Schoenberg

Chambernut – Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Prokofiev, Bartok, but also named others later

Lethe – Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartok

MDL – Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Sibelius, Shostakovich, Prokofiev

DavidRoss – named quite a few composers, his "choice" – Sibelius

Springrite – Mahler, Feldman, Carter

Toucan – Debussy, Schoenberg

Edward – Sibelius

Snyprrr – Xenakis

Christo – Havergal Brian

[eyeresist]

Late, but back on topic:

I'd say no successor has topped the orchestral achievements of Mahler.

My own favourite of the last century is probably Prokofiev.

Quite frankly, I don't hear a lot of music being composed today that can even stand against Stravinsky, Bartok, Berg, Janacek, etc. What I do hear are composers who aren't after public approval and that compose mainly for themselves, which is a noble thing within itself, but why can't a composer, of today's time, come up with a piece of music that is innovative yet accessible?

I agree with this bit, except for what I call the innovation fallacy. It's not the innovation that makes us want to hear these pieces - how can we hear them as innovative a century after the fact? In a related tangent, why do many of us call Dvorak a great composer, when hardly anyone would attempt to describe him as an innovator? He was not in any sense a revolutionary, but, unlike his mostly forgotten contemporaries, he had (1) a strongly individual personality, (2) a gift for memorable material, and (3) the capacity to conceive and execute sophisticated forms that were not mere intellectual fabrications but emotional entities. (Don't worry, I'm not going to start on about cosmic vibrations.) If modern composers are failing us, I'd say it is because they lack these vital qualities.

As if "greatness" wasn't enough, now we have to define "art". 

Art is a beautiful made thing. Problem solved!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'd give Prokofiev the nod, too, but the sentimental side of me just LOVED this thought:

Heck, some days I feel as if Monk were the greatest composer of the 20^th century.

[ibanezmonster]

Is this Fluxus?

http://www.youtube.com/v/UT5lgaE-qZY

[eyeresist]

I like this:

But Maciunas also chose [the name Fluxus] for another reason: the medical term 'fluxus' refers to a "sudden evacuation of the bowels". In this way Maciunas connected the movement with Dada, because the Dadaist Hans Arp had demanded that art should come "directly from the intestines or other organs".

http://www.museenkoeln.de/museum-ludwig/default.asp?s=1838

[some guy]

Is this Fluxus?

One piece by one of the Fluxus composers, yes. My favorite.

I've performed this piece myself a few years ago, in the Fluxversion 1, which has the person drip water into a French horn or tuba. And I went to the top of the ladder, too. And some of the water splashed onto the performer holding the euphonium (an unauthorized substitution, yes).

As he said afterwards, you must suffer for your art. 

[starrynight]

You know how for certain eras of the western art music legacy there are usually a few that really stand out well ahead of the rest .. for instance, for the Baroque era Bach .. the classical era Beethoven .. the romantic era Wagner .. just as quick one name examples off the top of my head

Yes but that doesn't mean that that has to be the case for the 20th century as well.  Music in so many styles, from so many places and so many composers.