GMG Consensus: Who was the greatest composer of the 20th century?

[Grazioso]

And Bach with his herd of children and two marriages can hardly have been "cerebral" all the time!   0:)

You mean CPE, JC, WF, and the gang didn't just spring from his head like Athena from Zeus?  "Ach, these verdammte headaches!"

[Cato]

You mean CPE, JC, WF, and the gang didn't just spring from his head like Athena from Zeus?  "Ach, these verdammte headaches!"

I was wondering who might run with that "cerebral" set up!   

Besides Stravinsky, one also thinks of the emotional portrayals in the works of Sibelius: increasingly enigmatic, "restrained," and yes, even "cerebral."  I still remember the classic Watanabe/Japan Philharmonic set of Sibelius symphonies, which had an image of the composer - embossed in the cardboard (I believe) - showing him with huge distended veins all over his head!

And yet...!

[Grazioso]

I was wondering who might run with that "cerebral" set up!   

Besides Stravinsky, one also thinks of the emotional portrayals in the works of Sibelius: increasingly enigmatic, "restrained," and yes, even "cerebral."  I still remember the classic Watanabe/Japan Philharmonic set of Sibelius symphonies, which had an image of the composer - embossed in the cardboard (I believe) - showing him with huge distended veins all over his head!

And yet...!

This discussion reminds me of the hilarious King of the Moon segment from Terry Gilliam's The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. The King's head, bent on pondering the abstract mysteries of the cosmos, literally detaches from his body, floats around, and gets in a fight with his body, which is more interested in banging the queen. All played manically by Robin Williams 

[Scion7]

If by sheer impact on music development in the classical realm,

Schoenberg - Stravinsky - Bartok

... these men's breaking of new ground or advancing certain aspects of the music is pretty much undisputed by musicologists.

                                        And I'd rather listen to Shostakovich or Prokofiev over Igor any day and twice on Sunday.   

[snyprrr]

Some years ago I wrote a small essay on why - despite having composed for several years - I decided I really could not be a composer.  I destroyed everything and have not looked back.

The few times when a work was performed (a few organ pieces, piano sonata, and a quarter-tone work a la Bach for a primitive synthesizer) the experience disturbed me in the following way: they made me feel completely exposed psychologically!  The last work, in my quarter-tone system, was especially disquieting, although at the time of its composition I was "coolly" more worried about the internal logic of the piece than about any emotional expressivity.

And yet I was extremely unsettled, when others heard it, and reacted (often with astonishment, and comments such as "Be careful!  They will use that against you at your sanity hearing!"       )

The point here is that emotional content can be quite different for the composer vs. the listener. I thought I could handle letting other people hear my subconscious calculus: I could not.  I also thought I knew what my work expressed, having built it note by note.  But the actual sonic experience was often too much.

Mahler, after hearing his Sixth Symphony, became scared of it.  Scriabin had the same experience with his Piano Sonata #6.


And Bach with his herd of children and two marriages can hardly have been "cerebral" all the time!   0:)

As Luke has pointed out: the composer might carefully disguise his emotional content, or parcel it out, and the listener might pick up that reticence (a similar charge has been made against Busoni) and consider it a negative.

I so have the fear of what others would be hearing also! But, haha, I was writing horror, and painting horror, and writing very sad sad songs, so, surely, I have deserved what I've gotten.

I was thinking about the guitar piece I'm (haha) "working" on. Surely the opening section is so discordant as to turn any listeners ear,... but, what WILL they think?


Oh, I remember,... here's my "argument": HR Giger, the wonderful artist of 'Alien' fame, who makes such "horrible" stuff, and lives in a castle,... apparently he thought that because his stuff was so 'complex', or whatever,... he thought that his 'fans' would be people more like him. Well, what happened is that his fans turned out to be dumb ass hippie freaks, or, let's just say people he really didn't WANT being his fans,... and they would come banging on his castle door and wotnot. I guess my point is is that we really HAVE to be careful when we initially forge our "fame".

Think about great pop musicians who are know for the one song they hate (reminds me of Paul Simon lamenting 'Kodakchrome',... many many other examples I can think of). I am so glad my 'Piece of the Pie' never became a hit, haha,... whew!! Dodged a lifetime's worth of Theme Park Concerts (Spinal Tap, haha) with that one!

So, now, I'm a nobody,... BUTTTTTTT, I'm NOT the guy that you can blame for 'Piece of the Pie' ('...apple of my eye-eye-eye,...love, you're the cherries in my piece of the pie...' ACK!!!). You can thank me now!!!

All is not lost.



btw- Cato, your story does deliver the Fear of God!!! I can only imagine your horror.

ok,... it's a little funny!

[Karl Henning]

Cato and I have met, more than once . . . rest assured that he gives no impression of cowering pale in the shade of Horror : )

[starrynight]

Consensus polls are more useful to beginners I feel than to those more familiar with the particular subject concerned (they will have their own considered opinion already).  My considered opinion is that such a question isn't that productive for my own enjoyment of 20th century music.

[Cato]

I so have the fear of what others would be hearing also! But, haha, I was writing horror, and painting horror, and writing very sad sad songs, so, surely, I have deserved what I've gotten.

I was thinking about the guitar piece I'm (haha) "working" on. Surely the opening section is so discordant as to turn any listeners ear,... but, what WILL they think?


Oh, I remember,... here's my "argument": HR Giger, the wonderful artist of 'Alien' fame, who makes such "horrible" stuff, and lives in a castle,... apparently he thought that because his stuff was so 'complex', or whatever,... he thought that his 'fans' would be people more like him. Well, what happened is that his fans turned out to be dumb ass hippie freaks, or, let's just say people he really didn't WANT being his fans,... and they would come banging on his castle door and wotnot. I guess my point is is that we really HAVE to be careful when we initially forge our "fame".

Think about great pop musicians who are know for the one song they hate (reminds me of Paul Simon lamenting 'Kodakchrome',... many many other examples I can think of). I am so glad my 'Piece of the Pie' never became a hit, haha,... whew!! Dodged a lifetime's worth of Theme Park Concerts (Spinal Tap, haha) with that one!

So, now, I'm a nobody,... BUTTTTTTT, I'm NOT the guy that you can blame for 'Piece of the Pie' ('...apple of my eye-eye-eye,...love, you're the cherries in my piece of the pie...' ACK!!!). You can thank me now!!!

All is not lost.



btw- Cato, your story does deliver the Fear of God!!! I can only imagine your horror.

ok,... it's a little funny!

Cato and I have met, more than once . . . rest assured that he gives no impression of cowering pale in the shade of Horror : )

I was not a little amazed to discover that this was resurrected last week: of course it is the season for such things!   0:)

No, I have not cowered in horror, but I have been nervous and disconcerted!   

Karl politely sat through one of my "Bachian" Quarter-tone compositions, and is still alive!   0:)

Snyprr: many thanks for your response!  You also reminded me of the story about Alec Guiness, who was highly upset by the attention he received from Star Wars groupies seeming to believe that he actually was Obi-Wan!   

"You have acted too well, Obi-Wan!  Now you must pay the price!"

[Karl Henning]

Snyprr: many thanks for your response!  You also reminded me of the story about Alec Guiness, who was highly upset by the attention he received from Star Wars groupies seeming to believe that he actually was Obi-Wan!   

"You have acted too well, Obi-Wan!  Now you must pay the price!"

Did I tell you the story which I read in (I think) the BFI series book on Star Wars . . . ?

Sir Alec was at some publicity event, and an enthusiastic young man met him with joy, telling the actor, "I've seen the movie [some crazy high number, don't remember . . . maybe 50] times!"

The actor replied, with grave mien, "Do you think you could promise me not to see it again?"

[Lisztianwagner]

hmmm......it's not simple to choose, I would be inclined to say Gustav Mahler; but there wasn't just one dominant figure in the world of the 20th century music, like Bach in the Baroque era, Mozart in the second half of the 18th century or Beethoven and Wagner in the Romantic era.

For importance and influence, I could say: Mahler, R. Strauss, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Debussy, Ravel and Schönberg.

[Karl Henning]

Mahler? You're just saying that to please Daniel, Ilaria! ; )

[Lisztianwagner]

Mahler? You're just saying that to please Daniel, Ilaria! ; )

Not at all!

I said more and once that if Wagner, Beethoven and Liszt had never existed, Mahler would have been my absolute favourite composer.

[Lethevich]

I am dismayed at the lack of support for Ferde Grofé.

[springrite]

I am dismayed at the lack of support for Ferde Grofé.

Maybe if he changes the spelling of his name to Freddie (Mc)Gruff?

[Karl Henning]

He just needs a PR team to tout him as An American Maverick . . . .

[Lethevich]

I could imagine a Fergal Ó Gríofa having some currency

Edit: WHY always with the out of context posts on the top of the next page.

[springrite]

I could imagine a Fergal Ó Gríofa

And they will name a perfume after him, too!

[springrite]

He just needs a PR team to tout him as An American Maverick . . . .

Or An American Maverickette, if Lethe gets her way.

[Cato]

I am dismayed at the lack of support for Ferde Grofé.

Just not enough travel suites: if he had completed the Ritz-Carlton Suite, that would have made a difference in his reputation!

[springrite]

Just not enough travel suites: if he had completed the Ritz-Carlton Suite, that would have made a difference in his reputation!

Motel 6 Suite would have more popular appeal, I'd think. Ah so many memories from my youth! Couldn't afford Ritz then!