William Schuman (1910-1992)

Started by vandermolen, June 26, 2007, 11:43:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mirror Image

Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2007, 11:43:55 PM
Any other admireres of this fine American composer?

I just discovered Symphony 6 in a historic performance conducted by Ormandy. What a great work; decribed by one critic as "A Requiem for the twentieth century" it ends beautifully and it has been a great new discovery for me. Symphony 3 (especially in Bernstein's Sony recording) is Schuman's best known symphony (there is a good new recording on Naxos) and the Violin Concerto and more populist "New England Tryptich" are both excellent works.

Is Schuman highly regarded in the US?

Thanks so much for starting this thread!!! I have just recently gotten into Schuman's music. I did a lot of research on his music before making any purchases and I listened to a lot of audio samples (which are NEVER long enough). I bought the whole Gerard Schwarz/Seattle Symphony Schuman series on Naxos. I just received them in the mail today, so I will be doing some heavy listening tomorrow.

He is often lumped into the same group as Piston, Creston, Thomson, Diamond, etc. and it is surprising to find out that he, like the composers I just mentioned, are seldom performed in the United States. I don't mean to demean my own country, but the United States isn't exactly the musical center of excellence it once was with American orchestras playing less and less of their own country's music and more of the same old warhorses they've been playing forever, but I know the board of these American orchestras have a lot to do with it, which is a seperate issue altogether.

Anyway, I will hopefully make some comments in the next couple of days, so until then I'm going to enjoy reading all of the posts.

karlhenning

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2010, 05:49:25 PM
. . . He is often lumped into the same group as Piston, Creston, Thomson, Diamond, etc. and it is surprising to find out that he, like the composers I just mentioned, are seldom performed in the United States. I don't mean to demean my own country, but the United States isn't exactly the musical center of excellence it once was with American orchestras playing less and less of their own country's music and more of the same old warhorses they've been playing forever, but I know the board of these American orchestras have a lot to do with it, which is a seperate issue altogether.

There are (or, were) larger forces in motion . . . for whatever passel of reasons, the US symphonists of the mid-20th century were relegated to a sort of musical ghetto.  Schuman and Mennin are the ones I am keenest on exploring at present.

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 26, 2010, 08:06:36 PM
There are (or, were) larger forces in motion . . . for whatever passel of reasons, the US symphonists of the mid-20th century were relegated to a sort of musical ghetto.  Schuman and Mennin are the ones I am keenest on exploring at present.

I would like to explore Mennin as well. He seems like an interesting composer.

Mirror Image

#63
I'm able to report back as currently I have heard many of Schuman's works. So far I have heard Symphonies Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, and 9. Of his other orchestral works I've heard "Circus Overture," "Prayer in Time of War," "Judith," "New England Triptych," and "Orchestra Song." I'm most impressed with "Symphony No. 4" and "New England Triptych." I'm less enthusiastic about the other works I've heard, but I still have Symphonies Nos. 7 and 10 to hear. One of the things that I'm not impressed with is the lack of motivic development in his music. There seems to be an almost academic dryness that permeates much of the music. "New England Triptych" was an enjoyable work, but the themes were not his own. It seems when the melodies aren't his own, he's able to find something unique and creative to say. He's a great orchestrator --- anyone with ears will be able to detect this just within a few measures. It seems he's spent a great deal of time thinking about which section is going to play this or what section will be playing that. "Symphony No. 4" was particularly enjoyable for me. As it's slow movement is probably the most honest emotion I've heard in any of his symphonies so far. The melody line just aches with sadness and loneliness.

These, of course, are just my first impressions and I haven't even finished absorbing what I've heard and I still have some more works to hear. But right now, I can't say I'm quite turned onto his soundworld yet. In due time I suppose.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Mirror,

I also have some problems with Schuman's basic style, which you call "academic" and which to me seems kind of dour, harsh and arid. He's also not much of a tunesmith. These are not always deficiencies though - at his best, as in the 3rd and 6th symphonies, he actually turns that harsh style to his advantage - in the 3rd by exploiting it in the context of baroque musical forms, and in the 6th by building a 1-mvt. structure with sufficient contrast between episodes (at least, that's my first impression of the 6th). But I can understand why his basic style turns some people off.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

vandermolen

Very interesting recent posts and I'm pleased to have started the thread  :) It has made me want to investigate Symphony No 4 which I've hardly ever played.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Scarpia

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 26, 2010, 08:06:36 PM
There are (or, were) larger forces in motion . . . for whatever passel of reasons, the US symphonists of the mid-20th century were relegated to a sort of musical ghetto.  Schuman and Mennin are the ones I am keenest on exploring at present.

My only exposure to Schumann is the "New England Triptych" which I found to be dry as sawdust (Hanson's recording on Mercury).  One of those cases when I want to set the CD player to display "time remaining" so I can see the countdown until it will finally end.  I wonder if this is typical or atypical of Schumann's work.  (I think, somewhere, I have a Sony disc with Bernstein conducting a few symphonies by Schumann.)

karlhenning

Quote from: Scarpia on June 30, 2010, 07:56:54 AM
My only exposure to Schumann is the "New England Triptych" which I found to be dry as sawdust (Hanson's recording on Mercury).  One of those cases when I want to set the CD player to display "time remaining" so I can see the countdown until it will finally end.  I wonder if this is typical or atypical of Schumann's work.  (I think, somewhere, I have a Sony disc with Bernstein conducting a few symphonies by Schumann.)


No, the Triptych is a minor work, and to some degree an arrangement.  One example of a much stronger piece is the Violin Concerto.

bhodges

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2010, 07:58:25 AM
No, the Triptych is a minor work, and to some degree an arrangement.  One example of a much stronger piece is the Violin Concerto.

Yes, I'd agree (although I haven't heard the Triptych in years).  But I did just hear the Violin Concerto recently--fantastic piece--and would also urge you to try the Third and Fifth Symphonies. 

--Bruce

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Scarpia on June 30, 2010, 07:56:54 AM
My only exposure to Schumann[sic] is the "New England Triptych" which I found to be dry as sawdust (Hanson's recording on Mercury). 

I've now listened to it twice; it comes with Schwarz's version of the 6th Symphony. While my reaction isn't nearly so negative, I do like the middle mvt. ("When Jesus Wept") a lot better than the other two. In particular, the oboe-bassoon interplay is really nice. The other two mvts. are not bad really, but seem a little forced at times.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

vandermolen

The opening of the New England Tryptich is very evocative and yes, the middle movement is very fine - so I think more highly of this work than some here  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

karlhenning

Quote from: Velimir on June 30, 2010, 09:56:17 PM
I've now listened to it twice; it comes with Schwarz's version of the 6th Symphony. While my reaction isn't nearly so negative, I do like the middle mvt. ("When Jesus Wept") a lot better than the other two. In particular, the oboe-bassoon interplay is really nice. The other two mvts. are not bad really, but seem a little forced at times.

My recollection of my own impressions is much in line with this.

Sergeant Rock

Of course it's no masterpiece but I love the New England Triptych. I admit it's partly for extramusical reasons. I'm a student of military history and battle hymns fascinate me: Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott (Thirty Years War), Battle Hymn of the Republic (the American Civil War), Chester (the Revolutionary War). I think that last movement is thrilling, the Billings' anthem on which it's based one of America's treasures.

I have several versions but have been listening to Schwarz/Seattle since yesterday, playing the Triptych and Sixth Symphony over and over. I'm not yet ready to say the Sixth is finer than the Third but it certainly rivals it.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

vandermolen

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 05:03:10 AM
Of course it's no masterpiece but I love the New England Triptych. I admit it's partly for extramusical reasons. I'm a student of military history and battle hymns fascinate me: Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott (Thirty Years War), Battle Hymn of the Republic (the American Civil War), Chester (the Revolutionary War). I think that last movement is thrilling, the Billings' anthem on which it's based one of America's treasures.

I have several versions but have been listening to Schwarz/Seattle since yesterday, playing the Triptych and Sixth Symphony over and over. I'm not yet ready to say the Sixth is finer than the Third but it certainly rivals it.

Sarge

Sarge,

I'm not sure it's finer either, but it is a very deep work which gives up its secrets less easily - I often return to it as I find it to be a searching, eloquent and visionary score (Symphony No 6).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

karlhenning

Someone alert me when Arkivmusic has a Naxos sale, please : )

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2010, 07:05:39 AM
Someone alert me when Arkivmusic has a Naxos sale, please : )

When they do, Karl, stock up, definitely. Their American Classics series is superb. Ordered more today (Morton Gould).

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

not edward

I have the Sixth, played it once and it didn't make a great impression on me. Must give it another spin, as I do like some of Schuman's symphonies. (I'm not totally convinced by Schwarz, who seems a pale substitute for Bernstein in the 3rd and 5th. I didn't even bother with Schwarz's 8th for that reason.)
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: edward on July 01, 2010, 09:04:47 AM
I have the Sixth, played it once and it didn't make a great impression on me. Must give it another spin, as I do like some of Schuman's symphonies. (I'm not totally convinced by Schwarz, who seems a pale substitute for Bernstein in the 3rd and 5th. I didn't even bother with Schwarz's 8th for that reason.)

Yeah, Lenny's Sony disc with 3, 5, and 8 is definitive. Still, I like the sound of Schwarz's cycle and may yet buy his versions too.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

lescamil

If you can be lucky enough to find it, or hear it somewhere, there was a wonderful performance of Slatkin conducting the third Schuman symphony which outdoes both of the Bernstein recordings of that same work. It has all of the excitement and bravura of the Bernstein recordings, but with the surgeon-like precision of the Schwarz recording (which is all that recording has, really). I think that precision is needed for such a tight work, though. I love Lenny's recordings of that work, but he is outdone by Slatkin in his performance. I know there are a lot of Slatkin naysayers here, but if you ever come across this, either by broadcast or whatever, do keep an ear open.
Want to chat about classical music on IRC? Go to:

irc.psigenix.net
#concerthall

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19772.0.html

-------------------------------------

Check out my YouTube page:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jre58591

vandermolen

Quote from: lescamil on July 01, 2010, 09:47:34 PM
If you can be lucky enough to find it, or hear it somewhere, there was a wonderful performance of Slatkin conducting the third Schuman symphony which outdoes both of the Bernstein recordings of that same work. It has all of the excitement and bravura of the Bernstein recordings, but with the surgeon-like precision of the Schwarz recording (which is all that recording has, really). I think that precision is needed for such a tight work, though. I love Lenny's recordings of that work, but he is outdone by Slatkin in his performance. I know there are a lot of Slatkin naysayers here, but if you ever come across this, either by broadcast or whatever, do keep an ear open.

How interesting - what label was it on?I like Slatkin very much and find his VW cycle to be underrated and his recording of Shostakovich Symphony No 8 is the one I return to most - also his recording of Copland's Third Symphony (I saw a terrific performance given by Slatkin at the Proms a few years back).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).