Choral Masters 1950-2000

[snyprrr]

I was inspired by Stravinsky's Canticum Sacrum and Threni (I'd like to add Orff, but...), and the, to my ears, the 'creepy lucifer music' that I have come to think of as Modern Choral, to invite you to a more challenging discussion on this most historically 'religious' music.

Whether Igor (or anyone) is really a BBBeliever or not isn't as much the point as the fact that there has been a general decline in 'traditional', or wotnot, 'religions', or wotnot,...it's not Bach's day, that's for sure! It certainly wasn't that far to the scandal of Bernstein's Mass, meaning, that, since the '60s, 'religious/choral???' music has gone under quite a profound change, no? Everything's been turned upside down, and now we're whatsoever we please.

In the '60s, Penderecki began his journey. In the '70s, Arvo Part began his. And so on.

Surely someone has a better grasp on this subject. I never was much a fan of the Classical 'singing', so, I'm pretty limited. I like typically beautiful singing music, just like anyone, but I can also enjoy SOME of the scary stuff. I am reminded of that Xenakis disc on Hyperion of all things, as something that I can enjoy. Xenakis actually has one choral piece that sounds like regular, beautiful, Greek music, A Helene.

I haven't really scratched the surface, lately, of Penderecki's Masterpieces, and I don't know which piece by Part (or whomever) is The One to get. I did enjoy the Stravinsky, and I always enjoy that devilish Orff like sound they make in movies like The Omen and such (Jerry Goldsmith Lux Satanis?) I think we had that on another Thread.

Ferneyhough? Nono? Berio? Boulez? Carter? Lachenmann? Any and all of these names make me shutter when I imagine how they would treat a group of singing People! I can deal with instruments, but, you really have to convince me with the 'vocals', as we say in the Pop Biz. Babbitt? yeeech??? And no, I've never taken the time with Berio.

And then there's Bussotti...


And then there's Part...


I just can't say I have any favorites here. The Stravinsky is about as far as I want to go. I'll tolerate the Xenakis (maybe because it's gibberish). I like that Bussotti DG disc, but, all these things are just for fun. I couldn't take it seriously as Choral Music. I'm not bashing, I'm just taking taste.

What do you like,... or not?

[Sid]

Well, my knowledge of this area isn't great, except for having heard some of the works of Arvo Part, Xenakis, Henze, Penderecki & our very own Australian Carl Vine. Another composer, perhaps more in a conservative vein than those you mentioned, is Morten Lauridsen. His music has been known to make me weep, and that's quite unusual, I can tell you! I was able to see his Lux Aeterna live last year here in Sydney, and it's being performed again this year. His music is well crafted and engages with ancient traditions - eg. Monteverdi - but updating them into a modern idiom...

[asin]B000TXNKAK[/asin]

[Christo]

Occupying a room - complete sound world - of his own is another Estonian, Veljo Tormis (born 1930, we celebrated his 80th birthday last Autumn). A major discovery for me, twenty years ago, was his cycle Unustatud Rahvad / Forgotten Peoples, a monumental tribute to the folk song legacies of six small (almost forgotten) Finno-Ugric nations around the Baltics.

[Maciek]

There's some fantastic stuff by Schnittke. And Silvestrov. But Luke will tell you more about that (I guess).

A major part of Gorecki's output is choral writing. Some of it I like very much. But we've talked about Gorecki before...

How about Trois Poèmes d'Henri Michaux?

[Maciek]

And this. Among Pawel Szymanski's most famous works:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-6r5X6RY57I

Lux aeterna

(Just a snippet, unfortunately...)

[petrarch]

I am certainly not a fan of choral and vocal music from the 1700s onwards, but these are works I thoroughly enjoy:

Nono, Prometeo, and generally anything post-1980 with electronics (e.g. Diario polacco 2)
Berio, Sinfonia, but not really Coro nor Un re in ascolto
Boulez, Le marteau, Pli selon pli
Cage, Roaratorio
Feldman, Rothko Chapel
Holliger, Scardanelli-Zyklus
Lachenmann, Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
Ligeti, Requiem, Lux aeterna, but not Le Grand Macabre
Rihm, Tutuguri, but not Hamletmaschine
Scelsi, Uaxuctum
Sciarrino, Vanitas

[Grazioso]

Try William Mathias, one of the most respected Welsh composers of that era, who is known for both his choral and orchestral music (awesome symphonies, among others). PS He wrote string quartets, too

http://www.youtube.com/v/aiM8U5dxWhE

http://www.youtube.com/v/64XzFbmb7MY

[MDL]

Just a quickie...

Berio: Sinfonia, Coro
Cristobal Halffter: Yes, Speak Out, Yes
Ligeti: Requiem
Messiaen: La Transfiguration
Penderecki: St Luke Passion, Utrenja, Kosmogonia, Canticum Canticorum
Stockhausen: Momente

[snyprrr]

Occupying a room - complete sound world - of his own is another Estonian, Veljo Tormis (born 1930, we celebrated his 80th birthday last Autumn). A major discovery for me, twenty years ago, was his cycle Unustatud Rahvad / Forgotten Peoples, a monumental tribute to the folk song legacies of six small (almost forgotten) Finno-Ugric nations around the Baltics.

I remember that ECM disc,... just not what it sounds like.

[snyprrr]

Just a quickie...

Berio: Sinfonia, Coro
Cristobal Halffter: Yes, Speak Out, Yes
Ligeti: Requiem
Messiaen: La Transfiguration
Penderecki: St Luke Passion, Utrenja, Kosmogonia, Canticum Canticorum
Stockhausen: Momente

I am certainly not a fan of choral and vocal music from the 1700s onwards, but these are works I thoroughly enjoy:

Nono, Prometeo, and generally anything post-1980 with electronics (e.g. Diario polacco 2)
Berio, Sinfonia, but not really Coro nor Un re in ascolto
Boulez, Le marteau, Pli selon pli
Cage, Roaratorio
Feldman, Rothko Chapel
Holliger, Scardanelli-Zyklus
Lachenmann, Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
Ligeti, Requiem, Lux aeterna, but not Le Grand Macabre
Rihm, Tutuguri, but not Hamletmaschine
Scelsi, Uaxuctum
Sciarrino, Vanitas

It DOES seem like we've been here before, then? Hmmm,... no real mysteries.

Is Modern Choral sooooo difficult, that we have ALL settled on what are the most 'listenable' pieces? If all you HardCores are coming up with the same stuff as I am, then maybe we already have this Thread sewn up?

It just seems that when you take the human voice away from the 'worshipful', you get a bunch of 'babel'?

Me? I just prefer a good 'ole minor key Sadness,... but, of course, I dooo enjoy many of the pieces you all have mentioned.

Haha, I did notice nobody mentioned Ferneyhough,... I can only imagine.


And, honestly, I can't even think of any favs myself,... btw, the Boulez piece I was(n't) referring to was e.e.cummings ist der dicter,... yea, not my cup of Boulez.


Good posts,... keep em coming!

[lescamil]

I particularly love when a choir is only composed of maybe 1 or 2 per voice type, and Louis Andriessen perfectly uses these sorts of forces. In his massive works De Materie and La Commedia, his choirs consist of only 8 voices, with 2 per voice type, and each has an individual part. It has a very pure sound to it, and that in combination with his intriguing harmonies is something that is very uniquely beautiful. A composer who similarly uses voices is Stephen Hartke, especially in his disk done with the Hilliard Ensemble (Tituli, Cathedral in the Thrashing Rain) and his Symphony No. 3. Here are some disks to go after:

[asin]B000005J3J[/asin]

[asin]B0009I46YO[/asin]

[asin]B000FGFD3S[/asin]

Unfortunately, Louis Andriessen's La Commedia doesn't have a commercial recording yet, but stay tuned. Also, I would regard De Materie as one of the greatest vocal works of the 20th century, easily.

[Maciek]

I forgot to mention Pawel Lukaszewski. (There's some stuff on YouTube + those two discs on Hyperion, one of which I do have. Some people rave about him. Personally, I'm just not sure...)

Hey, snyprrr, weren't you the one who kept coming back to Part?

[karlhenning]

Ivan Moody, Passione popolare:

http://www.youtube.com/v/74Pdhe9YT9A

http://www.youtube.com/v/ldIHm4rPFLU

[snyprrr]

Hey, snyprrr, weren't you the one who kept coming back to Part?

I just bring him up, because, as an 'outsider', Part's cross-over appeal kind of makes him earth shattering in terms of influence, no? He certainly did the old swicheroo, and snatched the 'originality' prize. I would be happy to find one piece of his I really like. Any suggestions as to his best piece?

Technically, my favorite choral piece we did in church: it was just the word 'Hallelujah' sung over an a minor/F background, with a solo voice, and then all,... wow!!!Awesome!  I need my choral music to be as simple as Part, but I haven't heard the piece I like yet. I've heard Passio, and found it pretty,... uh,... spare.

Just ordered Bussotti's Rara Requiem.

[Maciek]

You should try my favorite Gorecki piece, Beatus vir.

As to Part, I'm really the wrong person to ask. Both Luke and Edward advocated the Passion as one of Part's great works, but it did not really grab me. I do find the Stabat Mater wonderful, though (and I guess this time our two Part experts would approve, since they also named it among their favorites).

Penderecki has written some great stuff. Both in his earlier period (sections of the Passion, such as Stabat Mater, or for more searing stuff: the Dies Irae) and later on too (Agnus Dei from the Polish Requiem, or my favorite choral Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim). I never "got" Psalms of David, though. Don't know why...

BTW, I think the reason you don't find anything "extreme" enough for choir is simply because the choir (provided it sings well) always sounds good. I mean, a twelve-tone cluster sung by choir does not sound like a twelve-tone cluster. It sounds "nice".

[zamyrabyrd]

BTW, I think the reason you don't find anything "extreme" enough for choir is simply because the choir (provided it sings well) always sounds good. I mean, a twelve-tone cluster sung by choir does not sound like a twelve-tone cluster. It sounds "nice".

Very interesting point, and true too, probably having to do with the formants of the human voice (higher?) as opposed to instruments. Acoustics should always be considered in composition.
Cute trio in your avatar...
ZB

[snyprrr]

BTW, I think the reason you don't find anything "extreme" enough for choir is simply because the choir (provided it sings well) always sounds good. I mean, a twelve-tone cluster sung by choir does not sound like a twelve-tone cluster. It sounds "nice".

Yes, great point. There must be, however, some ugly voices. Haha, I do assume that they don't make the cut! Florence Foster Jenkins??

[Grazioso]

BTW, I think the reason you don't find anything "extreme" enough for choir is simply because the choir (provided it sings well) always sounds good. I mean, a twelve-tone cluster sung by choir does not sound like a twelve-tone cluster. It sounds "nice".

Case in point, I've been listening to Machaut's 14th-century Messe de Notre Dame (again), and it's hard to tell what's prettier, the harmonies or hair-raising dissonances. The gargoyles on the the cathedrals probably covered their ears 

[Maciek]

Wow! Thanks everyone for your reassuring responses. I'm not always sure if my personal aural impressions can be trusted, but clearly this is a case where they coincide with those of others.

Another piece for your list, snyprrr, would be Augustyn Bloch's Anenaiki. Quite magical, in my opinion - lots of semitones in the harmony, and yet a serene and pleasing effect.

Available on this ProViva disc (which I don't have - but I do know and love the piece):



I really ought to get it. But 16 euros is a bit too much.

Cute trio in your avatar...
ZB

Thank you.

[snyprrr]

Wow! Thanks everyone for your reassuring responses. I'm not always sure if my personal aural impressions can be trusted, but clearly this is a case where they coincide with those of others.

Another piece for your list, snyprrr, would be Augustyn Bloch's Anenaiki. Quite magical, in my opinion - lots of semitones in the harmony, and yet a serene and pleasing effect.

Available on this ProViva disc (which I don't have - but I do know and love the piece):



I really ought to get it. But 16 euros is a bit too much.

Thank you.

16 euros,... too MUCH??? Whaaaat?? Let's see, if I-I-I were to get that, from say, Amazon.fr, it would cost @$30!!! So, since 16 is almost half of 30, you're really doing quite well, no? mm mm mm