The obsession with death

[mc ukrneal]

What if the body isn't just some empty husk devoid of further significance? Consider some Christian concepts of the resurrection of the flesh. E.g.,

    "* As the soul has a natural propensity to the body, its perpetual separation from the body would seem unnatural.
    * As the body is the partner of the soul's crimes, and the companion of her virtues, the justice of God seems to demand that the body be the sharer in the soul's punishment and reward.
    * As the soul separated from the body is naturally imperfect, the consummation of its happiness, replete with every good, seems to demand the resurrection of the body." -- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm

Is this a commonly held belief by Christians? I was not aware they held the body as so significant. What if a Saint falls into a volcano and the body is vaporized? Is such a person penalized?

[Grazioso]

Sorry, that reminds me of Dr. Evil and his volcano lair 

http://www.youtube.com/v/tqos3j07jzc

[ibanezmonster]

Sorry, that reminds me of Dr. Evil and his volcano lair 

lol, thanks for that!
I forgot how much I liked Austin Powers.

[The Six]

Oh, and people who say things like "our lives are so meaningless. we're just tiny specks in the universe, we're so insignificant. we think we're important but we're not" need to go away. This comes up because Louie was saying it on his FX show. I'm tired of hearing that.

First, it's contradictory, because you're saying it like you've realized some grand revelation. You're not a great Greek philosopher. Realizing that we're small compared to planets is not a discovery. Second, it makes no sense. If the universe and nature are all-knowing and important, how can our lives be meaningless? Nature created us. We're not separate from the universe. Stop trying to marginalize the efforts of humanity just because you're depressed you can't get a girlfriend.

It's such low-rent bargain basement philosophy.

[jowcol]

Stop trying to marginalize the efforts of humanity just because you're depressed you can't get a girlfriend.
It's such low-rent bargain basement philosophy.

Irony like this will be the death of me....

[The Six]

Humanity and a few wannabe Socrateses are not equal.

[jowcol]

Humanity and a few wannabe Socrateses are not equal.

Except in death, the great equalizer, which renders both the real philosophizer and wannabe philosophizer into fertilizer.

[Grazioso]

Except in death, the great equalizer, which renders both the real philosophizer and wannabe philosophizer into fertilizer.

Imperious Caesar, dead and turn'd to clay,
Might stop a hole to keep the wind away:
O, that that earth, which kept the world in awe,
Should patch a wall to expel the winter flaw!

--Hamlet

[The Six]

Except in death, the great equalizer, which renders both the real philosophizer and wannabe philosophizer into fertilizer.

Yes, but only from that person's point of view. The living will continue to determine that person's worth.

[drogulus]

Poetry recitals on the other hand - I'd never dream of forcing something so ostentatious onto people I loved.

     How about having everyone listen to a screed about one of your favorite subjects, like...

     ....and another thing, I hate it when people say "I should of..." instead of "I should have...". Oh and before I forget (heh!) now that I'm dead don't think you can get away with wearing shoes with no socks! That's a haunting offense!

[Wanderer]

Offhand I can think of a lady who wanted her ashes fed to her cat, mixed in with its food. Come on, son.

I'm not sure the cat itself would be so easily obliging. Clever critters that they are, they can sense e.g. ground pills and other medication in their food in an instant.

[jowcol]

Imperious Caesar, dead and turn'd to clay,
Might stop a hole to keep the wind away:
O, that that earth, which kept the world in awe,
Should patch a wall to expel the winter flaw!

--Hamlet

Great quote-- I was actually tempted to post it  earlier..   of course, if you are thinking like me, you need therapy.

[jowcol]

Yes, but only from that person's point of view. The living will continue to determine that person's worth.

Doesn't probably make a lot of difference to the person in question, and the "living" will also die at some point.  I see much wisdom in the Buddhist notion that life, since it is transient by definition, is essentially unsatisfying.  (THis is the concept of Dukkha, which is the first of the four noble truths, and is often translated as impermanence, sorrow, or suffering.)

There is also the "vanity of vanities" theme in Ecclesiastes.

A couple other wannabe philosophers:

"Why take life so seriously? T'aint nohow permanent."
     Walt Kelly

"I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die. So let me live my life the way I want to."
    Jimi Hendrix

[Grazioso]

Great quote-- I was actually tempted to post it  earlier..   of course, if you are thinking like me, you need therapy.

Hey, you can rarely go wrong with quoting Bud.

[The Six]

Doesn't probably make a lot of difference to the person in question, and the "living" will also die at some point.  I see much wisdom in the Buddhist notion that life, since it is transient by definition, is essentially unsatisfying. 

I'm sure there's some organized belief that life doesn't just exist in an individual, but is a collective force. Everything is carried on by the living. That's why the dead composers discussed on this forum are still living, in a way.

Humans are too smart for their own good. Is an animal unsatisfied with its life? Can it be? Lions do nothing but kill, eat, and sleep, and they are most likely content with that. Humans have to sit around and meditate and convince ourselves that our lives are meaningless in some paradoxical attempt at finding meaning.

(THis is the concept of Dukkha, which is the first of the four noble truths, and is often translated as impermanence, sorrow, or suffering.)

Well those last two words are related. The first one...

"Why take life so seriously? T'aint nohow permanent."
     Walt Kelly
Aye, Walt, but it's all we have.

[drogulus]

I'm sure there's some organized belief that life doesn't just exist in an individual, but is a collective force. Everything is carried on by the living. That's why the dead composers discussed on this forum are still living, in a way.

     I can't see how organizing beliefs makes a difference, or even what difference it's supposed to make. It never has occurred to me, for example, that if I organized my beliefs by conforming them to what a whole bunch of other insecure believer types believed that it would raise my batting average. OTOH if I judged a belief according to a plausible account of what justified its truth I'd be in a much better position. So what's the point of organization? A million people spouting the same nonsense make a bigger splash, I suppose, and that's as good as true for some people.

     About life as a collective force, it's trivially true that "life goes on". With a little goalpost moving you might be able to persuade yourself that this makes it more likely that you will go on. But really! If a tornado destroys your house do you still have a place to live because "house goes on" in the form of all the other houses that weren't destroyed? Your neighbors might hazard to disagree. And you, poor believer, will end up with "high school gymnasium goes on" for the next few days.

     Death....it's good to remember that the extinction of a thing is not another thing. An ex-parrot is not a different species! A trick of language leads one to imagine that since things have names, names have things. It's not so. If death is a thing, what thing is it? It looks like a name for the end of life, life stopping, and so it is. Yet the concept of a non-thing has been troublesome since at least the pre-Socratics. Maybe I should try to be more understanding.*

     A poster here used to say that I didn't know this was true. He was wrong about me, and wrong to think he didn't know everything relevant to the case. Everyone knows, because a small set of facts decides the case and fine details about distant things don't matter. Death is local, like zoning. The deep mysteries of the Universe have no power over the decay and disintegration of formerly living things. I know there are whole schools of philosophy dedicated to the idea that "we don't know what isn't certain", but none of those thinkers uses that "insight" for any practical purpose. It is, in a formal sense, bullshit to say it. It's said for effect by people who do not care whether it's true or not. All of the death fantasies fall into this category, of propositions that are considered true as long as you can't be certain they aren't. That is bullshit, the very paradigm of it. Nothing is true because you don't know for sure it's false.

     _{* What??}

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

The requests people make when they're dying, though, can be so silly.

I think an interesting aspect is this,,, - From our WW2 warriors I know (my grandpa for instance) many of the dying soldiers are calling for... mummy.

[The Six]

A very weird thing is when people talk about how any tragedy is just part of "God's plan." Like God wanted to take our loved one who just died. No, actually, every event that happens isn't because of divine destiny. Adam Carolla has a funny bit about this, something like if little Timmy runs into the street and gets hit by a mack truck, you'll see on the news the family saying "He was called by God. God had different plans for him." Well couldn't God have at least let the boy die peacefully in his sleep, instead of having his guts smashed out all over the highway? Why was it part of the plan for him to go so violently? And what plans could God have possibly have had for a little boy? Was there an open slot on Heaven's kickball team?

My favorite is when it is said that if a person dies, "he's in a better place." Interesting way to try to cope with the loss. If it's such a better place, WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST KILL OURSELVES AND GO THERE RIGHT NOW? WHY WAIT? IT'S A BETTER PLACE!

[Wendell_E]

My favorite is when it is said that if a person dies, "he's in a better place." Interesting way to try to cope with the loss. If it's such a better place, WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST KILL OURSELVES AND GO THERE RIGHT NOW? WHY WAIT? IT'S A BETTER PLACE!

Some fear that if they commit suicide, they may end up in a much worse place.

[Daverz]

Some fear that if they commit suicide, they may end up in a much worse place.

I really doubt many people avoid suicide because of the fear of hellfire.  People avoid suicide because they're afraid of dying, and that includes the pious and impious alike.