The Troll Void

[snyprrr]

Personally, I tend to find trolls very entertaining, as I'm fascinated by circular logic.  If you view them as a form of entertainment, and assume they won't change, they become a moveable feast.  I've been on some lists were their behavior was so predictable that people set up Troll Bingo.   The trick is to realize the opportunities for entertainment that a troll in one's midst can provide.

Although, I haven't seen anyone on this forum who I'd call a full-fledged troll-- I'd say its a much more educated bunch than I've encountered in the past. 


I do miss Theresa-- but remember, she wasn't a troll, she was a pure energy angel that did not want flouride to sap and contaminate her precious bodily fluids.

I do not fear women, Mandrake,... I just don't give them my essence.

Nothing wrong with that logic. All we ask for is a country of our own.

[Luke]

M forever wasn't a troll. Just slightly insensitive and a little bit rude, His posts always made sense even when he rubbed some people the wrong way, whereas the essence of trollness (trolldom?) is senselessness, stupidity and provocation.

Nah, he was a troll. He went out of his way to offend and cause mayhem and, however knowledgable he was about some things, on others he was clueless and clearly only spoke to create trouble and disrupt threads. When he made errors - which happened more often than he'd have liked - he got particularly nasty.

OTOH

Speaking of trolls, we haven't seen Sean in a long while. He fits this definition perfectly:

I really don't feel Sean was a troll. Maddening, at times, with those huge, dense posts, those long lists, plenty of more questionable opinions and tastes (and not just musical ones) - but he really meant all that stuff, genuinely, it was thoughtthrough and consistent even if perhaps rather crazy. He was also self-deprecating and self-deflating in a way that Pinkie or Saul or Newman or M never, ever were. I got on with him well, in fact, and as time went on I found plenty of common ground with him, even if there were certain subjects it was best not  to even think about broaching!

[MishaK]

I really don't feel Sean was a troll. Maddening, at times, with those huge, dense posts, those long lists, plenty of more questionable opinions and tastes (and not just musical ones) - but he really meant all that stuff, genuinely, it was thought through and consistent even if perhaps rather crazy.

Umm... NO! Thought through? Thought through what? Consistent? Maybe consistent in making the same logical errors over and over. Logically consistent most certainly not. He was a troll according to the definitions above regarding self-centered obsessive posting of large amounts of text and lack of willingness to absorb an incorporate viewpoints different from his own.

[Luke]

Umm... NO! Thought through? Thought through what? Consistent? Maybe consistent in making the same logical errors over and over. Logically consistent most certainly not. He was a troll according to the definitions above regarding self-centered obsessive posting of large amounts of text and lack of willingness to absorb an incorporate viewpoints different from his own.

'Thought through' in the sense that he'd thought about it all a great deal and driven things along to some sort of conclusions; consistent in the sense that he always said the same thing, or variants thereon - his thoughts about Hinduism were reflected in his thoughts about music, for example. And yes, those thoughts may have been odd ones, he may have made many logical errors - hell, I argued about stuff with him a lot, especially in the antimodernist threads we used to have so many of (I almost miss them!) - but at least they attempted to go a little deeper than Pinkie's 'it's all slushy and pwiddy, so it's good' or Saul's 'it's by a Jewish composer, so it's good.'

I don't really go along with that definition, either - trolling is more than that to me, it involves aggression or the attempt to cause upset, or a deliberate wish and plan to provoke. I don't really recall Sean doing any of that, not in what seemed a deliberate manner, though undoubtedly what he posted was often provocative. And more than that, as I said, though he was unshakable in his beliefs, he at least had the decency to laugh at himself for it, and to bemoan his own limitations frequently. Hell, when I first encountered him he annoyed me more than anyone else had around here. But he lacked the mean-spiritedness of an M, or the lack of sense of humour of a Saul, and that's why in the end I warmed to him quite a lot.

[MishaK]

'Thought through' in the sense that he'd thought about it all a great deal and driven things along to some sort of conclusions;

Though through tends to mean to consider various approaches to a problem, to consider all possible criticisms of one's chosen approach and to take an idea to its logical conclusion. Sean tended to fail on all three of these, mostly on the latter two.

But he lacked the mean-spiritedness of an M, or the lack of sense of humour of a Saul, and that's why in the end I warmed to him quite a lot.

That is very true.

[Luke]

Though through tends to mean to consider various approaches to a problem, to consider all possible criticisms of one's chosen approach and to take an idea to its logical conclusion. Sean tended to fail on all three of these, mostly on the latter two.

I agree - except that, as far as I understood Sean (and I had quite a few PMs with him about this stuff as well as reading what he wrote here) he was aware of the 'various approaches to a problem' but he would tend to dismiss the ones he didn't agree with more readily and angrily thn a cooler head might. For example, the issue of the validity of atonality, if I can call it that, which was a discussion I had with him early on, it was something he felt strongly about, it was mixed up for him with his hatred of academic music and university music; he was conditioned, by his own experiences maybe, or by some other tendency, to dismiss these other approaches, but that doesn't mean he wasn't aware of them. And then, yes, he took his ideas to their conclusions. Whether one could call those conclusions logical is another matter (!), but he still reached them by a process of thinking-through, however logically flawed it may have been. 

[MishaK]

I agree - except that, as far as I understood Sean (and I had quite a few PMs with him about this stuff as well as reading what he wrote here) he was aware of the 'various approaches to a problem' but he would tend to dismiss the ones he didn't agree with more readily and angrily thn a cooler head might. For example, the issue of the validity of atonality, if I can call it that, which was a discussion I had with him early on, it was something he felt strongly about, it was mixed up for him with his hatred of academic music and university music; he was conditioned, by his own experiences maybe, or by some other tendency, to dismiss these other approaches, but that doesn't mean he wasn't aware of them. And then, yes, he took his ideas to their conclusions. Whether one could call those conclusions logical is another matter (!), but he still reached them by a process of thinking-through, however logically flawed it may have been.

Oh, I am quite aware of his thought processes. I had quite a few contentious debates with him. I think rather the issue is that he has some psychological reaction against knowledge delivered to him through some sort of recognized educational authority of whatever kind. Any information of such a source is automatically suspect and to be discarded, according to Sean, even if the preponderance of the facts clearly supports the official story. That's not really thinking as it is emotional reaction with subsequent rationalization of a pre-selected desired outcome. It is only through consistently rejecting information from higher authorities or official sources that he can brand himself a "free thinker". 

[karlhenning]

Dude! Don't Go There!

[Luke]

Oh, I am quite aware of his thought processes. I had quite a few contentious debates with him. I think rather the issue is that he has some psychological reaction against knowledge delivered to him through some sort of recognized educational authority of whatever kind. Any information of such a source is automatically suspect and to be discarded, according to Sean, even if the preponderance of the facts clearly supports the official story. That's not really thinking as it is emotional reaction with subsequent rationalization of a pre-selected desired outcome. It is only through consistently rejecting information from higher authorities or official sources that he can brand himself a "free thinker". 

Oh yes, that sounds a fair description - and what I was trying to say was that Sean's theories were 'thought through' against that anti-authority (specifically anti-academics) backdrop. So, as you say, very far from unbiased, and in fact almost always fairly clearly misguided. But arrived-at with a kind of Seanian logic within the context of their own misguided premises. Whilst I almost never agreed with him, I sneakingly admired him for something of that - that instead of throwing his toys out of the pram and simply rejecting the academia he was so ambivalent about, he still patiently tried an academic method (those long essays and abstracts...! ) to present his own theories.

[Luke]

Dude! Don't Go There!

Why? Is free-thinking trollish now?  pffff

Don't worry, I'm steering away from that one. I sense some bad vibrational fields around it....

[Scarpia]

I don't really go along with that definition, either - trolling is more than that to me, it involves aggression or the attempt to cause upset, or a deliberate wish and plan to provoke. I don't really recall Sean doing any of that, not in what seemed a deliberate manner, though undoubtedly what he posted was often provocative. And more than that, as I said, though he was unshakable in his beliefs, he at least had the decency to laugh at himself for it, and to bemoan his own limitations frequently. Hell, when I first encountered him he annoyed me more than anyone else had around here. But he lacked the mean-spiritedness of an M, or the lack of sense of humour of a Saul, and that's why in the end I warmed to him quite a lot.

I generally agree with your definition of trolling, it is the incessant posting of material where the goal is to provoke, cause upset, and remain the center of attention.  That was not Sean, he really believed he was giving us the benefit of his genius.  If I had to characterize Sean with a phrase (I can do this now, it's not against the rules of use to insult a non-participant in the board) it would be "narcissistic moron."  I found his philosophical musings adolescent at best, unworthy of a 13 year old, yet he pontificated as though he was the long awaited successor to Aristotle.  Then there were the conspiracy theories, 9/11, etc.  The most sorry sight in the world is a mediocre person who mistakes himself for a genius.  Then there was the sexual degeneracy. 

[Philoctetes]

M forever wasn't a troll. Just slightly insensitive and a little bit rude, His posts always made sense even when he rubbed some people the wrong way, whereas the essence of trollness (trolldom?) is senselessness, stupidity and provocation.

Well he did troll that one guy who always extolled the virtues of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Heck148. Those were such awesome threads.

I don't think there is a single troll, in the classic sense, on this board.

[karlhenning]

I agree - except that, as far as I understood Sean (and I had quite a few PMs with him about this stuff as well as reading what he wrote here) . . . .

My dear fellow, how ever did you manage it? : )

[eyeresist]

Then there was the sexual degeneracy.

Hooray!

[CD]

Then there was the sexual degeneracy.

Dingo: And after the spanking, the oral sex.

Galahad: Well, I could stay a bit longer...

[Gurn Blanston]

M forever wasn't a troll. Just slightly insensitive and a little bit rude, His posts always made sense even when he rubbed some people the wrong way, whereas the essence of trollness (trolldom?) is senselessness, stupidity and provocation.

Dude! How long did it take you to put so many modified euphemisms into one gigantic crock of a sentence like that? I'm figuring an hour at least!   

I liked M as much as anyone here, but I'll stand at the head of the line when I say that despite his virtues (such as they were) he was an asshole of the first water. He trolled sometimes but he wasn't a troll. The 2 chief trolls we've ever had here were Newman and Teresa. The balance were mere dilettantes comparatively.    I say this from being in that corps who had to deal with them behind the scenes. Believe me, they were our resident icebergs; only the tip showed above water...



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[CD]

I liked M too, but he was a total dick. Theresa was just painfully stupid and absolutely crazy.

[Gurn Blanston]

...Theresa was just painfully stupid and absolutely crazy.

No, I think that had to be part of her shtick. No one gets to be beyond a teenager without getting over some level of sheer idiocy. Hell, if she was genuinely that stupid, I don't think she would have been able to feed herself, for example...



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[CD]

I did love her "my posts are IMHO [ha!] brilliantly intelligent!" quote — all time, that one

[jowcol]

. The 2 chief trolls we've ever had here were Newman and Teresa.

I'm sad that I never got to experience Newman.   I feel as if I've missed something-- like that guy in the Rad Bradbury story who kept arriving at different planets right after Jesus left them, doomed forever to also just being in is presence.

The most memorable trolls on other lists Ive been on was:

• The one guy who kept threatening to bring a motorcycle gang over to your house to personally kick your ass.
  The person who kept treatening to commit suicide on line.
  The teenage con-man with 6 identities that kept trying to borrow money and trade nonexistent music. 
  THe psychotic woman who, if you  crossed her on line, would try her best to mess up your life-- she was better than Glenn Close on fatal attraction-- I know that she got three people fired from their jobs (they used corporate email accounts for a listserv) and also broke up two marriages just with phone calls.
  The person that kept getting all sorts of treatments on his urethra and needed to give us frequent updates. Worse yet, he kept referring it to his problems with his pee hole.  And he was very sensitive (in all senses of the word) if you asked him to take it off line.

I guess I didn't see what went on behind the scenes, but this is, despite everything, a far more genteel forum.

My take on Theresa was that it wasn't all drivel-- I know we shared some tastes in common.  But she would just spout out anything once someone disagreed with her.

Maybe she's decided to run for politics...