GMG Listening Group — Beethoven Symphony № 6 :: 12-18 June 2011

[starrynight]

Now......onto my puny music reading abilities, most of it based on hearing than the score.  It's nice how he uses the beginning fragment of the first theme to introduce the second theme, adds to the overall harmony between the ideas of the movement.  The second theme, typically, is smoother more flowing.  The instruments in this movement echoing or answering each other and rising up in great unisons of sound.  There is a suggestion of a brisk walking through the countryside (it begins as if on the move as 'in medias res') with slight pauses for contemplation, with small intimations of dance sprinkled through.  Pretty much sounds like a mono-thematic development, looking at parts of the first theme, this makes it all the more fulfilling and joyous when the theme comes together at the start of the recapitulation.  The recapitulation all sounds quite regular.  In the coda I see he uses the idea at the end of the exposition.  The more quiet hushed sections juxtaposed with the affirmative louder ones reminds me a little of the end of this symphony.  You may notice the little dance/jig just before the end as well.  Just before the final chords one last look at the start of the main theme.  The end is strongly affirmative, with the quiet notes at the very end leading on nicely to the slow movement.  So ends my extremely amateur analysis.

[karlhenning]

. . . 2. Harnoncourt as slow as Barenboim? I haven't heard Harnoncourt yet but would never have guessed it.

Curious! I don't hear any languor in the Harnoncourt . . . .

[karlhenning]

The first movement seems to me simply to glow with major triads.  It probably doesn't quite work out to anything so thorough, but it wouldn't surprise me if the first and second themes are harmonized purely by the primary triads I, IV & V.

That "major-ness" continues to characterize the Development, for even when those passages shift a third, to what "ought to be" a minor triad (as when B^b moves to D, and G to E) the shift is to the major again.

[Scarpia]

The first movement seems to me simply to glow with major triads.  It probably doesn't quite work out to anything so thorough, but it wouldn't surprise me if the first and second themes are harmonized purely by the primary triads I, IV & V.

That "major-ness" continues to characterize the Development, for even when those passages shift a third, to what "ought to be" a minor triad (as when B^b moves to D, and G to E) the shift is to the major again.

I think here Beethoven more-or-less invented the idea of a "sound-world" (a term people seem to drop when they want to make a point but can't quite figure out what them mean).  The consistantly glowing triadic sound of the 6th seems to pervade the work, just as the 7th symphony has a very consistent but darker harmonic "color" that seems to pervade it, despite the major key.  For all of my high regard for dear Haydn, I'm sure I could slip a movement from symphony X into symphony Y and no one would be the wiser.  If you tried to drop a movement from the 7th into the 6th is would seem completely out of character.

[starrynight]

Haydn's symphonies did change a bit over time.  The more streamlined sound of the Paris symphonies wouldn't probably fit with some of the quirkier middle period ones for instance.

[Scarpia]

Haydn's symphonies did change a bit over time.  The more streamlined sound of the Paris symphonies wouldn't probably fit with some of the quirkier middle period ones for instance.

Yes, I agree you can't mix and match between the London Symphonies and the early Esterhazy symphonies, obviously.  But I bet I can do a swap between two London Symphonies and get away with it. 

[starrynight]

104 I think has a more stately and nostalgic kind of air to it, 102 I think has a different kind of sound in being warmer richer sounding perhaps.

Beethoven of course only did 9 so each one was more an event for him.  But I'm sure that are at least 9 different types of symphony that Haydn wrote.

[DavidW]

Thanks Brian that is interesting!  It's looking like the tempos don't vary as much from performance to performance as they do with other lvb symphonies.

[Sergeant Rock]

Thanks Brian that is interesting!  It's looking like the tempos don't vary as much from performance to performance as they do with other lvb symphonies.

Here's a few more. Klemperer isn't that slow (his third movement is perfect, not slow  )  Some comparisons:


Klemperer/Philharmonia   12:58  13:17  6:32  3:44  9:11

Barenboim/Staat Berlin    13:12  12:05  5:30  4:03  9:49

Bernstein/Vienna             11:43  13:29  5:25  3:43  10:18   

Szell/Cleveland                  9:53   11:52  5:34  3:48  10:17 (No first movement repeat)

Walter/Columbia                9:49   11:53  5:43  3:41  9:39 (No first movement repeat)

Sarge

[karlhenning]

The second movement is characteristically an Adagio-cum-sonatina . . . a trick LvB took straight from the WAM playbook ; )

The bird-calls are artfully placed in a quasi-cadenza position in the overall form, yes?

[starrynight]

No, they are placed in a really awful position in the overall form.


















Just joking, lol.  It is obviously like a cadenza both in it's position in the movement and it feels how the orchestra leads up to it.  It doesn't though feel like an improvisation, it functions as part of the coda.

[karlhenning]

No, they are placed in a really awful position in the overall form.


















Just joking, lol.  It is obviously like a cadenza both in it's position in the movement and it feels how the orchestra leads up to it.  It doesn't though feel like an improvisation, it functions as part of the coda.

Of course, although in practice a cadenza was often improvised, it isn't necessarily. (And from LvB on, cadenze are almost normatively composed out.)

[starrynight]

Well it still functions really as part of the coda I think, it doesn't really go on a long journey exploring various ideas, is concise and relates in general to the whole coda.

[jochanaan]

Sadly, I have two recordings of the Pastoral--both on LP, and my turntable died a while back. I have to admit, also, that the Pastoral is my least favorite among the Beethoven symphonies (which isn't saying much, like trying to distinguish between choice and prime New York Strip steaks ).  One of my recordings is by Josef Krips and the London Symphony from about 1960; the recording is pretty poor quality, but the orchestral playing is superb and Krips' conducting is exemplary.  At one time I had the Solti-Chicago 1970s recording, which I remember as being just about perfectly played, but I got rid of it once when I needed cash.

Looking through the score, one thing I realized recently is that, according to Beethoven's very specific tempo directions, the Scherzo's Trio should be exactly the same tempo as the first movement.  It's the same kind of faux peasant dance, although the thematic material is highly modified if not completely different--but how many conductors catch that detail?

[zamyrabyrd]

I have to admit, also, that the Pastoral is my least favorite among the Beethoven symphonies (which isn't saying much, like trying to distinguish between choice and prime New York Strip steaks.

Same here, until I got into its form and inner workings. Then I began to hear it as pure music without the programmatic distractions and enjoyed it better.

ZB

[starrynight]

Looking through the score, one thing I realized recently is that, according to Beethoven's very specific tempo directions, the Scherzo's Trio should be exactly the same tempo as the first movement.  It's the same kind of faux peasant dance, although the thematic material is highly modified if not completely different--but how many conductors catch that detail?

The dance on the woodwind seems more heavily accented, on listening, than the main theme of the first movement.  I can see why you would see a dancelike element to the the first theme at the start of the symphony, though it is feels more broken up to me because of the number of motifs Beethoven wants to weave through that movement.  There is a little jig before the end of the first movement which I pointed out before and there are suggestions of dance throughout the symphony I suppose.  Some conductors I think take the first movement too slowly.  Wagner said the 7th was the apotheosis of the dance, well this one has it's own dance.

[starrynight]

Same here, until I got into its form and inner workings. Then I began to hear it as pure music without the programmatic distractions and enjoyed it better.

ZB

As I said in my first post here I don't mainly see it as program music.  That is too restrictive.  And anyway as I said Beethoven seemed to have second thoughts about using the descriptions and he basically took them from an earlier piece anyway.  His creativity comes with the music not with the descriptions.  And if you took the descriptions away the main two program music moments would be the bird calls (which as I said I consider to work structurally within the coda) and the thunderstorm.  The peasant dance is a scherzo like others by Beethoven, and the scherzo being derived from the minuet is meant to be dance-like anyway.  I know he makes them sound a bit like amateur country players but I still think my point largely stands.  A bit early to talk about the thunderstorm, but I think it works as more than just a descriptive piece.

[starrynight]

The third movement is in ABABA form.  Beginners listen to this piece and see if you can spot these different parts, be careful though as Beethoven actually splits both A and B sections into contrasting parts as well.  Hopefully you can spot where the storm begins, it's after a loud blast from the brass.

[zamyrabyrd]

A bit early to talk about the thunderstorm, but I think it works as more than just a descriptive piece.

Same here with the 2nd movement, crossing the brook and getting into the dry land of musical material worked for me. (And, incidentally, given that it is already June 18th, not too "early" at all.)

ZB

[starrynight]

It is laughably reductive I think to just see it as Beethoven getting caught in a storm and getting an umbrella from some shepherd at the end of it.  As I said in my first post in this thread Beethoven took the descriptions from an earlier piece anyway, he just used it as a structure to build the drama around.  And it is a drama just like the 5th, fate crushes down on man and what must be done is to find a way through that adversity.  The solution is different this time and not some triumphant defiant stand against all his problems.  Instead it is a peaceful coming to terms with his place in the world and an understanding that beyond suffering can lie peace and happiness.

The storm itself is very concise and uses with great effect the simple means of contrast the agitated string texture with the dominating brass chords cutting through it.  As Beethoven said to someone about Handel, 'Go and learn from him how to achieve vast effects with simple means'.